THE four-letter word I most dislike begins with a ‘C’. We’ve already had that debate on this blog.
But the most abused and misused four-letter word I can think of is ‘rape’. There was a time, not too long ago, where it wasn’t considered polite to mention rape in conversation. Too raw, too politically-charged, too obscene, ‘dirty’.
The first time I realised that rape was not to be addressed with the ‘r’ word was while watching – forgive me – Home and Away. Carly, stumbling home to the caravan park, clothes torn and in tears, having been raped while out hitch-hiking. Not once in the weeks of soap drama that followed, not once during the ministrations of Tom and Pippa, the discussion among her friends, the investigation by the police, was the word rape used.
Carly was “attacked”. It wasn’t that the effects of rape were not tackled – so why was the word itself considered too profane for the largely teenage audience watching the show?
I don’t think that’s the case now, and well it shouldn’t be. This country is coming down with men, women and children who have been raped and sexually abused. (The Rape Crisis Centre went so far as to use the word “endemic” last year about rape and child sexual abuse in particular here. While their figures can’t be definitive – they can obviously only record the experiences of those people who actually contact their services – they are no less a national disgrace for that.) The very least they should be afforded is the right to use the correct, criminal term, loudly and publicly, for what has happened to them.
Today though we’re looking at transcripts of gardai “joking” about how two women arrested on public order offences in relation to the Corrib pipeline protests should be told to give their names and addresses or be raped.
I read a comment online this morning that people are taking the “banter” between a couple of unidentified yahoos from Templemore a bit too seriously.
Let’s just leave that stand and ferment there, shall we?
Is ‘to rape’ now an acceptable verb through which to express one’s annoyance? Are you having a laugh?
We know the word still carries a powerful impact. The seriousness with which the courts treat cases of, thankfully rare, false allegations of rape indicates that this is not a word to be bandied about. And rightly so. But if the courts recognise that it’s a criminal offence to falsely accuse someone of rape, how is it not clear to everyone that the effect of the word in the converse situation is similarly an act of aggression and an outrage?
What’s in a word? Ask the women of Toronto who took part in a “Slut Walk” on Sunday to protest against a police officer’s comment that women are putting themselves at risk of rape by dressing like “sluts”. Ah, that old sane, rational, women-are-the-problem argument again.
So the women who took offence put on their fishnet stockings, stilettos and the most revealing clothes to march and chant:
Whatever we wear, wherever we go, yes means yes, and no means no.
They wouldn’t “let it go”. I don’t think we should let this one go either.
NOTE FROM THE EDITORS
As last week’s rape post showed, people have understandably strong feelings on this issue. This comment thread is purely to discuss the the casual use of the word rape in the context of the Corrib gardaí case and the implications of this case, such as whether we can trust gardaí who talk about rape in that way to take actual rape cases seriously, or whether an investigation into garda conduct can be properly carried out by fellow gardaí. Any reference to last week’s discussion of rape will not be approved. Nor will personal attacks, assumptions about other posters, or attempts to hijack the thread and devote it to other vaguely-rape-related issues. This is NOT a thread about false accusations of rape or their implications. And if you want to talk about how the Corrib gardaí were just having a laugh, there are plenty of other online spaces where you can do so. We reserve the right to not approve any or all comments.
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Hear hear. Am completely shocked and disgusted by this – I can imagine they think it’s being blown out of proportion, but it’s so incredibly not funny and not casual for people in any kind of position of authority or power to say something like that.
Especially as rape has traditionally been used by institutions as a weapon against women (and men, for that matter), and still is – think of that incredibly brave woman in Lybia, Iman al-Obeidi, who was dragged away from a press conference by armed forces after telling the media she had been raped by Gaddafi’s militia. There’s nothing funny about joking about raping someone, but for gardaí, who are both in a position of power and in one where rape victims will be approaching them for help, to do so is even worse.
Totally agree with you. The way Jim Fahy refrained from using the word rape on Morning Ireland today was a perfect example of it, too.
I’ve just blogged about this myself – am now questioning all the dealings I’ve ever had with Gardaí in the light of this. Have they joked about raping me?
http://deshocks.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/give-me-your-name-or-ill-rape-you/
I agree. Jim Fahy nearly fell over during that part of his report. Not sure why he couldn’t just say it outright, the recording did, so why couldn’t he. I think it’s appalling that they could have spoken like this. Banter or not, it’s very serious to talk about rape in that manner. It never has been, never is, and never will be ok to rape someone or to talk about it as if it is something that’s acceptable.
My own thankfully limited dealings over the years with the “force” – from the one who punched me, hard, in my teenaged stomach for riding a bike without a light, to the visiting off-duty one who amused himself by non-stop and aggressive teasing of the cat, to the ones I’ve heard talk about ‘scum’ and ‘goujers’, and so on – mean that I’m not even a tiny bit surprised by the transcript. There’s an awful lot of nonsense talked about the ‘bad apple’ theory of occasional Garda lapses from the highest standards of behaviour. In my experience, their view of the world and their own superior position in it is clearly part of a systemic culture. It would be very interesting to hear about the experience of female Guards as more of them are recruited. (Not that that will necessarily make a whit of difference to the lads’ behaviour when they’re on their own, no more than it would in any workplace.)
Wow, that’s some treatment you were expected to lap up. Punched for riding a lightless bike? I hope you reported the fecker.
I agree that the word ‘rape’ is a powerful word and it should be used carefully. But when I first raped, I physically flinched every time anyone described what happened to me as ‘rape’ rather than an attack.
I still find it a painful word to use in relation to myself and whenever I have to use it about others, I use it wisely to make sure I am not re-victimizing them with each four letter description.
I do have to be restrained from whacking people round the head with my handbag if they use it as a punchline to a joke or as a description of what the banks did to the country…
Sarah, those are really powerful points. Do you think there is a right or wrong way for the media to describe an act of rape, or a way to describe it that wouldn’t upset victims but would also convey the seriousness of the crime?
I think we can all agree that it’s wrong to use it casually in that supposedly joking way to refer to the banks, or the government, or even a sports team…
I agree about the use of of the term to describe other experiences – I was shocked when I came across it recently in relation to comments about the effect of cutbacks and taxes on people’s (men’s?) pay packets.
What I find most shocking about the whole thing is that a) I’m not surprised although I’m horrified and disgusted and b) I can’t believe I’m having the argument with my peers on Facebook that there is something wrong here. The issue isn’t and shouldn’t be did they do something wrong – the question is how do we move on and eradicate our society of this type of behaviour.
A former workmate told me of a French comedian’s understanding of offensive humour. You can joke about anything, the comedian said, but not to everyone.
This makes lots of sense to me and over the years I’ve heard vicious jokes about murder, rape, war, cannibalism, famine, genocide, most made in private with an understanding between the joker and listeners. A brutal-sounding racist joke shared between people who reject racism is funny because of its absurdity. Hence we can watch and laugh at South Park when a Jewish child complains that he can’t concentrate in school and Cartman replies: “Maybe we should send you to a concentration camp”. Likewise there are jokes (and now a comedy play) about the notorious rapist Josef Fritzl.
Reading that Garda transcript it sounds like they, too, were joking at the absurdity of it. There is a massive social taboo on rape, it is clearly an extreme evil, so using rape as a police tool for protestors is ludicrous – like beheading someone for a parking violation. Hopefully their amusement comes from the craziness of it: leaping from “arrested” and “deported” to “raped”. An alternative interpretation is that these are brutal men for whom rape is amusing in itself, their laughter coming from a sadistic pleasure in the idea of abusing the woman. But I wouldn’t assume the second interpretation is correct.
Perhaps another point is that Gardai are expected to behave in a particular way while on duty, and can keep dark jokes to their private, off duty time. Regardless of context and intent, such casual talk of sexual violence may be inappropriate for a representative of the state.
“Regardless of context and intent, such casual talk of sexual violence may be inappropriate for a representative of the state.”
Change “may be” to “is” and I’m in total agreement.
Whether they like it or not (?), when a guard is in uniform he or she is held to higher standards of behaviour than your general eejit in the pub.
Good post (apart from the praise for the “slut walk” – there are other ways to celebrate empowerment and promote equality than marching around in half-nothing calling yourselves sluts, even if it is to make some kind of point. If they were doing it in Afghanistan, then they might get some kudos from me).
I can’t remember the exact figures, but last year’s Rape Crisis Centre figures were horrifying – they added up to something like two rapes a day, as I recall. Which, even if you take for genuine misunderstandings, or false reports, or even genuine cases where a guy thought he had consent (and lest I be flamed, I think the latter is the rarest of things) means that violence against women is at epidemic levels in our society. And yet, the number of rape prosecutions and convictions remains stubbornly low.
Some people still don’t see it as a crime, or think that if it happens, the woman is to blame. Witness what happened in Kerry last year where an entire village essentially turned on a rape victim for turning in her attacker because he was a popular lad.
The word needs to be used openly, it’s meaning explained, and the consequences of the act made plain to guys from an early age. As for joking about it, well, these guys should be made an example of. They’re tasked to protect, but they just made people feel less safe.
I believe the walk is probably influenced by ones like this – http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gToLgn61sPKux6zrdmhd3px2JJxg – when women in Johannesburg marched in mini skirts to protest the rape of a woman by a group taxi drivers.
Your comment about protesters ‘marching around in half-nothing’ seems a liiiiittle censorious. By whose standards are you judging? What is ‘half-nothing’ to you might be perfectly acceptable attire to someone else. I don’t assume I have the right to police how anyone dresses, why do you?
I am so inspired by the Slut Walk!! ‘Sluts pay taxes’. Fantastic!
Great signs though. ‘I like sex- I don’t like uninvited sex’ – ‘Blame rapists for rape’. Very clear messages.
Yeah, I did have a thought: maybe they’re just having a reeeaally dark, private, Chris Morris type moment. The absurdity of the following line, ‘Will you be my friend on Facebook’ made me wonder this. But it’s really hard to tell.. and you’d want to err on the side of caution. Because these people are meant to be our protectors. I was a bit grossed out by the guard who said, No, you wouldn’t want to rape her, you don’t know what you’d catch. That was a bit chilling.
As you say Shane there is probably a very very strong argument for absolutely behaving impeccably any time you have the garda uniform on. It’s too easy for ‘dark humour’ to tip over into ‘this is the icky thing I secretly really think’ and too hard to see where the line is.
The thing that came across that worried me the most, actually, when I listened to the recording, was the hatred. It came across so clearly that the words almost didn’t matter. Well, not ‘didn’t matter’ but were almost manifesting things that were already plainly audible. Guards should *not* be that emotionally involved. They are guardians of the peace. Their personal feelings about protesters do not come into it. What is more, I was disappointed and a little horrified by how unenlightened and uneducated they seemed.
In this context it does creep me out that ‘hatred of “hippies”‘ somehow translated into ‘rape joke’.
Their deep un-sophistication also makes it unlikely that they were, as I wondered earlier (just thinking aloud here), having a Chris Morris moment.
I don’t think they have that level of understanding of complex satire in them.
My main problem with this Slutwalk is the triviality of it. I’d support such a walk, enthusiastically, in an oppressive, woman-hating Muslim tyranny. Because there’s risk involved. It’s not just attention-getting, validation-seeking, consciousness-raising acting-up. In that case, it would be real courage in the face of unspeakable evil.
Here, though? It’s a bunch of privileged white girls essentially singing “You’ve got to fight for your right to parrrtay.” Not really the same thing. Now, did the cop say something stupid? Yes he did. Does marching around in not much at all while carrying slogans saying “I like sex” (as if a potential rapist is going to read the second bit, or pay any attention to it) advance the cause of women? No it does not. And by the way, when we (rightly) blame the mass media in many cases for turning women into sex objects, and then link that objectification back to the desensitisation of young men and the increase in sexual assaults, then a protest like this is actually counterproductive and stupid.
The cultural left is fond of this sort of pointless gesture; it’s actually the only thing they do, pretty much. The sexual revolution was over 30 years ago, and the left won it (and by doing so, won it for young single men), but they’re still parading around celebrating the same very stale victories and pretending that this particular fight is still on. The right to wear what you want was won a long time ago. Want to stop sexual assaults? Focus on teaching young men that women are more than just sex objects. This wasn’t the way to do it.
John, I disagree.
>> ..essentially singing “You’ve got to fight for your right to parrrtay.”
I would have felt that they are saying, We get to do what we want – just like men. Men do not get to say women provoked them. Women have no act, hand or part in rape when it happens. There is no such thing as ‘provoking’ a rape. If I as a woman want to spend my century on earth sleeping with a different man every night and wearing Jodie Marsh’s cast-offs, I am still not ‘asking for it’. I think this is what the protest is saying.
>> Does marching around in not much at all
This feels like it has judgment in it. The thing is, here in the west we have the right to wear not much at all if we like. From a style point of view or an aesthetic one or whatever, my opinions about that don’t come into it – I myself don’t even own a bikini:) – but fact is, women get to do what we want, just like men. This is freedom.
>> And by the way, when we (rightly) blame the mass media in many cases for turning women into sex objects, and then link that objectification back to the desensitisation of young men and the increase in sexual assaults, then a protest like this is actually counterproductive and stupid.
See, this is why I feel this protest is actually helpful and smart. Because rape is not a result of the desensitisation of young men. Poor young men, who have to be protected from themselves! That disrespects men just as surely as it blames women.
>> The sexual revolution was over 30 years ago, and the left won it (and by doing so, won it for young single men),
See, again, everything is *not* all about the mens… please remember that one generation ago (my mom’s generation), if an unmarried woman even had ONE lover she was considered ‘wayward’…!! meanwhile men are *supported* by their male relatives in the losing of their virginities.. it was ‘part of being a man’. Let’s not oversimplify how much good and free-ing change has happened. This is not even to mention the birth control pill, etc.
>> Want to stop sexual assaults? Focus on teaching young men that women are more than just sex objects.
We’re not actually sex objects, but thank you.
I have to go back to work now but I submit this with respect. Thanks John and everybody.
“You’ve got to fight for your right to parrrtay.”
Well, it looks like they do need to fight for their right to party! Partying’s totally acceptable for men, but women shouldn’t do it because it’s asking to be raped.
That’s pretty much the definition of needing to fight for the right to party, right there.
Very well-said, Kim. (I posted a link to the Not Ever campaign further down, re the slut notion. It makes me angrier than just about anything on the planet, and the fact that cops in Canada actually perpetrated this myth is terrifying.)
I think a number of the guards have been there for a number of years, 10 in some cases, I imagine that is part of their personalising behaviour.
Great post, but I think ‘Slut walk’ is misguided too- Slut is an ugly derogatory word about a person’s sexual behaviour, why the hell should women want to use it about themselves? How about no one is a slut no matter their sexual behaviour.
I should point out I am behind the message of the walk though, let’s let the blame for rape rest squarely at the feet of the rapist.
Yeah! No one blames you for getting burgled cos you had pretty curtains!
I had a physical reaction to the news this morning when I heard the story about the male Gardaí ‘joking’ about rape.
Rape is the worst thing you can do to another human being. Yes, it’s even worse than murder. At least if you’re dead, your suffering is over. *That’s* how serious it is. As regular readers of this blog will know, I speak from experience.
When I made my reports to the Gardaí, they were as sensitive as they could possibly have been – and I dealt with both male and female members of the Gardaí. I felt that they were doing their utmost to make the experience as easy on me as possible. At the time, I thought their sensitivity was the norm; that this is how I would have been dealt with by any member of the force. Now, I’m not so sure.
What shocked me most about this tape was that rape was mentioned several times, by more than one Gardaí as an acceptable thing to do to a woman who refuses to give her name and address to them. At no stage did any Garda even gently reprove his colleagues by saying something like ‘Ah, here now, lads, that’s not funny.’ or ‘Jaysus lads! That’s going a bit far.’
This leaves me wondering how they treat any women who work in the station with them – and how they treat women who come to report crimes against them.
Exactly right. Which needs to be taken on board by the ‘it’s only a bit of banter’ crowd. I feel deeply sorry for any woman questioning today how their own trauma might have been picked apart and tittered at by people who should no better.
Sigh, no- know, tired fingers.
Hazel, that’s a great point about the fact that no one said the others were going too far. Does that mean this sort of conversation is the norm among those particular guards? I have never heard any man joke about raping a woman who annoyed them, ever, and I’m pretty sure the men I know wouldn’t laugh along or stay silent if they were in the presence of someone who did make jokes like that. They’d be shocked, because that sort of talk is extreme and socially unacceptable. Or it should be. I’m very glad to read that you were treated well by the gardaí, though, and hope that this crowd aren’t the norm in our police force.
I disagree.
“Is ‘to rape’ now an acceptable verb through which to express one’s annoyance?”
I could be wrong but I do not believe the Garda used it to express his annoyance. He used it to escalate the conversation to a new and more shocking level in an effort to be funny and invoke a reaction from his colleague. It is a typical form of comedy these days (think Frankie Boyle, Ricky Gervais). That does not make it tasteful or right – but actually, rather than condone rape, the aim of the joke, is to actually outline how outlandish it would be to threaten the woman.
It was uttered to a colleague with the implicit understanding that the man saying it would never, and could never actually do something like that. Thats what they were laughing about – it is ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous and outlandish and unrealisitic. That is where the ‘humour’ is.
They can be lambasted for bad taste – but to suspend them or sack them is wrong. There are plently of people who have said bad things about people and situations as jokes shared others – remember this was between two colleagues in private. If it was wrong it was wrong- but it is no-ones elses business really – it reflects badly on them – but it is irrelevant to their jobs.
On the ‘Home and Away’ thing – I was in my early teens when that happened – I thought she was just attacked! My cousin (10 yrs old said she was raped) and I said ‘nah, she was attacked’. I was really disturbed when the penny dropped.
Incidentally, the use of the word rape IS used casually amongst young men, particularly in sport. If someone is dispossessed of the ball (or outstripped for pace), I’ve heard the term ‘player1 was totally raped’ etc – I think a commentator recently said this during the analysis of a game – and apologised immediately – I am thinking Graeme Souness on RTE 2′s soccer coverage ( I could be wrong on that but I think so…)
Another one thats been around for years is – when a player cant control the ball very well ‘he has the touch of a rapist’ – again horrible – but unfortunately widely used…..
Even though the Gardaí were not using the word in this context- perhaps that’s why I find the Gardaí incident nasty, but not at all surprising.
or in the a saying that has been around for years in sporting circles
I’ve worked in a Rape Crisis Centre, and it terrifies me when people bandy this word around. What terrifies me more is when ‘civilised people’ start to go down the road of “she was asking for it”. It’s like that idea of ‘all it takes for eveil to prosper is for good people to do nothing’… As soon as we start to think ANYTHING makes rape invited or acceptable we are weakening a vital message to society that rape is NEVER ok; invited or an acceptable response.
These Guards are supposed to know better. Everyone has heard a ‘joke’ which crosses the boundaries at some stage; but this is a bridge too far. Rape isn’t about sex it’s about power; what position are these Guards in-a POWERFUL one. This is a frightening interaction but sadly not one that surprises me all that much. And that’s the really sad bit.
We were only discussing the word and how it has substitutes depending on the perpetrator/institution orvictim the other night. Subtle but makes a big difference.
Sadly I’m not too surprised about these revelations. Just listening to the clip now I’m remind of the way a soldier’s mind is shaped before they leave for Iraq or whatever. The ‘enemy’ is dehumanised and looked on as some sort of animal. I don’t this is done in Templemore though, no need in some cases…..
‘Joke’ or not they are Garda on duty, with two women in custody and probably a stack of cases on file in every station in the country.
Not even near good enough.
You can see from the pictures that not everyone involved in SlutWalk was white. Or had a vagina.
http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/04/slutwalk_toronto_takes_its_message_to_the_street_/
I didn’t attend because since I frequently hear slut shaming from women, there’s no way the term could act as a shield from rape. Plenty of folks abide the ‘she was asking for it’ refrain no matter what the country.
Keep in mind that the march was a response to a police officer telling university students that if they didn’t want to get raped, they shouldn’t dress like sluts.
Yes, the word “rape” has certainly worked its way into popular culture of late, from the song “Raped in the Face” on Southpark to the first time I heard it used in comedy, on Jimmy Carr’s projector-screen warm-up one-liners:
Q: “What’s worse than finding a worm in your apple?”
A: “Being raped.”
I’m afraid I laughed out loud in both shock and astonishment when I read that one, but I guess it was cos it was true, a mockery of the stupidest joke ever, because there are things a lot worse than finding half a worm in your apple, and this was a tacit acknowledgment that being raped is just about the worst thing that can happen to a person. It’s a bad-taste joke about perspective.
That said, rape has now become a throwaway punchline for all wannabe clowns, and I guess the guards are no more pig-ignorant than the rest of the populace in that respect. It’s the new “dead baby” joke. It’s the new sicko, street-hard slang.
In gaming it’s used as a synonym for winning, as in: “Man, we just totally RAPED them!”
It’s even used as a synonym for being taken by surprise, PLEASURABLY (ack! Scream!) as in “Wow, that beer RAPES! Gimme more!” and then as a bad experience, as in “that fart raped my nose”.
It’s horrible; of course it is. What’s next then? We’ve already done dead babies; how about paedophilia?
Would it have been deemed banter if the guards had said “Gimme yer name and address or I’ll rape yer children?”
I think not.
I reckon if the guards think it’s okay to joke about vicious, sexual attacks on (mainly) women, then there’s pretty much no hope for society. They, of all people, should know it’s just not funny. Not ever.
Excellent point.
I took a (female) friend of my Facebook the other day because she posted a comment about how she couldn’t sleep because “the light was raping her eyes”. Just … what? What is that even ABOUT?
“Would it have been deemed banter if the guards had said “Gimme yer name and address or I’ll rape yer children?”
I think not.”
Spot on!
Oh, and my current favourite You Tube video, from Rape Crisis Scotland. It’s about the “asking-for-it” notion:
This is a reminder to potential commenters to remain aware of the strict comment guidelines that appeared at the end of Susan’s post. There we advised those who want to claim the gardai’s remarks as joking banter to find another forum to discuss this issue. It is not a subject we want to go into here. We have approved several comments that verged on this topic as they have also made more pertinent points, but will not be approving any more. This is not up for discussion. As we said in the original post, those who want to discuss the topic in this light will find plenty of spaces online where they can share their views.
I have just returned home from work, and have finally listened to the actual audio having heard about this all day. I wasn’t sure what to expect, but am still stunned with what I heard. Men laughing about rape. Men laughing about the idea of threatening someone with rape. The fact that the men in question were on duty Guards only further disgusts and frightens me.
I’m disgusted that these guys could either be so distant from or indifferent to a reality they are entrusted with responding to.
I don’t think there’s much point in allowing people to comment if you’re not going to allow certain view points! I wouldn’t dream of treating rape lightly, or excusing the gardais comments as banter, but if that behaviour does exist then it’s because some people think it’s ok, and I would expect to see that reflected in the comments. While it makes sense not to allow the comments to stray into irrelevant or dangerous areas, opposing viewpoints on the same issue should be allowed or else it isn’t a debate at all, just people agreeing with each other. Rape is a very sensitive issue, but not allowing a differing perspective on the subject discussed in the post, kills the potential to get people talking about an important issue. I’m not saying people should be allowed youtube-style liberty in the comments, but a little freedom of opinion is a good thing, no matter what the subject matter.
If any of these cases existed in isolation, we could have a conversation about the messed up, deeply unprofessional individuals who said them. But these comments are made in the context of most women experiencing verbal abused for the crime of walking down the road. Depending on what you happen to look like, you’ll get it from the age of fourteen. Nasty, sly, vile, abusive, sleezy, sneering, mock-complimentary – the tone will depend on the day, the weather and the exact nature of the individual cretin.
I listen to music compulsively when I leave the house – every now and then I forget why. It’s a bit because I love music, but it’s a lot because it blocks out the jarring, offensive, personal comments, usually of a sexual nature, which are the price most women pay from time to time for have the temerity to walk down the road alone. To buy a pint of milk. While wearing, for the record, whatever was least in serious need of a wash that morning.
That’s the context in which these pillars of the community and upholders of public safety made those comments. That’s the context in which I – and plenty of other women – hear them.
The audio is totally vile: the Beavis & Butthead type laughter to follow doesn’t do much for the clichéd dowdy reputation of [culchie, especially] cops. But it’s all said & sniggered by two ignorant pricks who never ever have to consider the idea or reality of actual rape. Not unless of course it was one of their daughters in x-amount of years and then of course, there wouldn’t be anger like it across the land. Horrible misogynistic lunacy, made all the more rancid because they are supposedly people in a position to protect, etc. A veritable napalm for garda reputation now, I’d say. You can pass the fitness test and the theory exams, but how do you riff through the wheelie bin for the attitudes of these two? It sets back all the good work that’s been achieved too. Awful stuff.
To all those who have questioned the strict commenting policy on this particular post: it’s there for a reason. Monitoring the comments on this site is hugely time and energy consuming and it is done in the very busy editors’ spare time. At times, when dealing with certain issues that provoke strong responses and ones that could potentially distress other readers, we have to set strict boundaries at our own discretion so that we do not have to spend hours trying to calm down escalating arguments, as happened last week.
I think it’s great to have a blog which is edited by people who’ve obviously thought in detail about the kind of forum they want to curate. You can come here in the certainty that while you mightn’t agree with everything said, you won’t have to trawl through abuse and petty aggression.
First, forgive me if I’m repeating what’s said in other comments but there are too many now for me to read through before I go to bed and I feel compelled to comment. I’ll try to be organised and coherent.
1. The Gardai should not have made such misogynistic comments. Gardai are expected to enforce the law without discrimination but these comments discriminate on several levels (rape, crusty camp). They call into question the impartiality of the Gardai policing the Rossport/Shell area.
2. They should not have suggested the inappropriate threat of legal sanction (deportation) against these women either. That these Gardai did so reflects badly on the whole force, its training and professionalism.
3. A lot of public money has been expended on policing the Rossport campaign (legal fees, Garda overtime, etc.). Yet these Gardai express a very high level of frustration and despondency at the situation. They do not feel confident in their ability to safely police the situation or in their superiors to support them should a confrontation arise with the protesters. This is no ‘cosy nixer’ but rather an increasingly tense situation with the guardians of the peace in an invidious position.
Rape. It originally entered the law statutes as a crime against property – every woman being the property of some man. So I’m not surprised it’s a term being invoked here, by these two representatives of the Sate’s authority, these guardians of the public peace in an invidious position: caught between the property owners and the people, upholding the law of property instead of the law of the land.
Apologies for taking so long to engage with comments today – rushed out the door to work after posting that earlier and just in now. But I have been popping in to look all day and I’m glad that the comments that are published are having a reasonable debate about the issue.
As I pointed out to a tweeter who asked why I had not addressed the fact that a garda had also “joked” about deporting one of the women, the post is about the use/misuse/abuse of the word ‘rape’ in recent times and not just on this occasion.
If I had longer to think about it this morning I would have widened the frame in which I’ve heard it bandied about – in gaming circles (honestly!), sports, and of course out of the mouth of a former government minister who decided that media attention was like “being raped on a daily basis”. You know who you are, Martin Cullen.
Sarah, I thank you for your comment – it reminds me how gut-churningly descriptive the word is and I wish everyone who thinks this incident – and others like it – are “overblown” would read it.
On the ‘Slut walk’ reference, I too like the idea behind it and I don’t necessarily believe that the women’s use of the word ‘slut’ was to in any way reclaim it, if you like. (Who’d want possession of a word like that?)
I saw it more like – you say we are sluts/deserving of sexual attack/rape/harrassment for dressing as we please? Fine – here we are as ‘provocative sluts’ as you would term us – we still don’t believe it gives you the right to say we should eat up whatever shit you throw our way.
Saying that, perhaps the Slut walk should be a separate post on its own – if any Antiroomers want to take it as a jumping point for another piece, feel free! The underlying message was brilliant, I thought – and not trivial, as John McGuirk says. I would align myself with Kim V’s response to that comment.
It absolutely disturbs me to the core that some people refuse to take this type of talk seriously, but I am not surprised. Since moving to Ireland a year ago, I have become sadly accustomed to the fact that rape is just not taken very seriously here.
The short sentences imposed by the Irish judicial system on rapists shocks me. Even those who rape again – usually within days of being released – are not given the sentences to fit their heinous crimes. I think it’s a vicious cycle: Victims know going in that they’ll have an uphill battle and that after all their efforts their rapist may see just a few years behind bars. The women often decide just to try and get on with their lives, either out of fear of retalliation after their attacker is freed or from the sheer emotional toll it will take or both; the rapists go free and the public’s preception that rape is not as serious a crime continues. People in authority positions like these policeman think it’s OK to joke about it. And the cycle goes on and on…
Our sentencing [in Ireland] for rape is hideously low and recidivism is high because there’s a proven ‘low price’ to pay for this type of brutal crime. I remember sitting reading a paper back in late 1990s on my way to interview Olive Braiden who headed up RCC in Dublin at the time. There were two sentencing stories on the same page: one where a man who tied a woman up and raped her in a public park in Dubling got two years, and another where a junkie who robbed a handbag on Westmoreland St. got three years. When I got to the interview Olvie said she was resigning soon because she could not, in her heart of hearts, encourage women to go through a court process where they’d little hope of success and one which she felt, by that time, would traumatise them further. It’s ultra depressing how such a remorseless savage act as rape can end up being joke-fodder for birdbrained cops in this day and age. They should be named & shamed.
While I’m not a huge fan of the tabloid papers I do appreciate the fact that a few of them do an incredible job at making the public aware of just-released rapists and criminals. Some may find the screaming, oft-hysterical headlines and menancing photos alarming, but that’s exactly the point! At least they’re letting us know that x, y and z are walking the streets once again after serving a pathetic amount of time in jail for rape. It’s certainly more of a service than what the authorities are offering: a slap on the wrist and the opportunity to strike again.
I have mixed feelings about the tabloid press! I’ve worked in one and hated the behind-the-scenes ‘who cares’ nasty ethics…but also believe that the public have a right to information, etc…Sad fact is our streets are full of dangerous loons, all of the time (as are a lot of Irish families). The gardai themselves often don’t know when a ‘dangerous’ criminal is being re-released as was the case with finding James Nolan’s severed arm last week: http://bit.ly/dTuaOD Garda hadn’t a breeze he was back out, but someone somewhere did.
In response to Clare: the tabloids are not doing women a service. Rather their hysterical headlines imprison women psychologically by reinforcing the belief that the streets are unsafe, that our bodies are not our own, that the systems charged with our protection are insufficient to do so and that sexual violation is a persistent, consequential threat of being abroad. Reading these reports, it is far too easy to believe that we might be safer in burkas and harems, locked within the bosom of our male-fenced domestic havens. Their underlying message is a regressive sanction of male domination masquerading as concern for higher standards of public safety. There are no guarantees against violence – sexual or otherwise. What must suffice instead is to feel confident in our laws and judicial system and police forces. Yes, the laws should have mandatory sentencing correlative to the supposed seriousness of the crime of rape, which is held to be equivalent to murder in terms of crimes against the person. Sober reporting, training of judges and mandatory sentencing, is that too much to ask to restore confidence in the system?
The harsh reality is that there is no way people here can have faith in the judicial system and those with the power to actually do something about it. I’m not saying that tabloids are the answer, but at least they provide information when a known, serial rapist has been freed. To be honest, I don’t know how I’d hear about it otherwise because police certainly aren’t issuing statements or going around neighborhoods letting us know.
Yes, I wish things were different but I’m living in reality. I hope the Irish people band together and demand change in the system that is failing rape victims and protecting their attackers. Do you really expect me to believe that the current system – one that produces policemen who think it’s funny to joke about rape – is one I should have faith in? Impossible.
I think the idea of a “slut walk” sounds like a powerful tool in the quest to disable this pejorative term. If women embrace the term, just as the terms “fag” and “nigger” have been adopted by many members of those communities, the insult can be rendered powerless. I think the show of solidarity shown by these women for all women, irrespective of class, race, sexual orientation or dress sense is inspiring. We regard to the Gardai in Mayo, I don’t think the issue is whether or not they were joking around, the point is that they clearly felt utter contempt for the two women protestors, simply because they were protestors and because they were women. I think we could learn a thing or two from our Candadian sisters and hold a “crusty bitch” walk of our own.
Good point Izzy!
Thankfully, very few people here disagree that what these gardai have said was, at best, in incredibly bad taste. At worst, there’s talk of this shaking people’s confidence in the Gardai generally. They should be reprimanded accordingly.
However, I do take issue with one or two of the ways in which this story is being reported on in the media. Firstly, many reports are treating the gardai’s comments as though these were at some point actually said to the women or were going to be. It is clear from (a) the fact that the gardai didn’t know they were being recorded, coupled with (b) that these comments were nevertheless never made to the women involved that the comments – vile as they were – were made in a completely private context.
Secondly, I am of the opinion that humans often joke about those things that actually horrify them the most. Whilst these dolts didn’t seem too cut up about anything involved in their bad jokes, it may be assuming too much to say that, when faced with an actual case of rape, any of these men would respond with insensitivity of this sort. Furthermore, to generalise to all/most gardai on this matter seems ludicrous. All the defensive talk from the minister and commissioner, whilst probably necessary, also acts (I belive) to frame this as a problem with the Gardai generally. I don’t believe this to be the case.
Eoin, you might be right and when these Gardai are confronted with a real live rape victim, they can compartmentalize the fact that they believe there is an appropriate time for a woman to be raped, a justification for a man doing it and the fact they find rape something to be joked about at times, and investigate that rape to the very very best of their abilities.
Or they could be like the two boyos who pinned the blooded and mudstained knickers I was wearing the night I was raped to the office noticeboard as a joke before failing to interview witnesses, refusing to attend call outs to arrest the rapist, deliberately destroying paperwork and not sending off evidence, but finding time to tar me a drunken slut to all who asked. Their behaviour allowed a serial rapist to evade capture and roam the streets to this day six years later.
Sarah, a brave and brilliant statement of fact.
Very well put. I will never forget the experience of pleading with a very close friend, after she had been raped, to please not have a shower, brush her teeth or do anything before we went to the gardai.
Cue going into the garda station and having the two men that were behind the desk joke about “stinking like a brewery” (it’s true her breath smelled very off, we are pretty sure her drink had been spiked, but did not go to the hospital after this) and “can’t believe the taxi driver let you in” (her trousers were ripped, blood, mud and semen stained and the straps on her top had come off, and the taxi driver was initially hesitant but had a little more sensitivity and awareness than these gardai). My drink had been spiked too, and I had passed out, so I looked very dishevelled, prompting a third garda to join in and jokingly say, to much laughter “Don’t tell me you’ve been raped too. Don’t you girls think we have anything to do up here.” Well, their tactics worked, and we left in time to get the same taxi driver to bring us home.
The reason this incident has hit home with so many people is because it’s a very clear expression of the dismissive attitude towards rape in general. This incident is set against such a larger background of (justified) distrust in the gardaí and the legal system when it comes to the issue of rape.
As regards to the tabloid newspapers, we deserve so much better.
In one of the Industrial Schools [Artane] the word ‘badness’ was used by the children who were subjected to acts of sexual violence by the clergy. In another the words ‘plumber’ and ‘plumbing’ were used to describe the clergy who were plumbing the depths of sexual depravity.. What’s in a word, heh?