Like the vast majority of people in this country, I was born into a Catholic family and was brought up as a Catholic. However, as I have not considered myself a Catholic for many years, and putting down “liberal agnostic who sometimes attends services at the Unitarian church” doesn’t seem quite right, I’m going for “no religion” on the census form next month. In a country that still essentially uses baptismal records as an excuse for not providing totally secular, non-denominational education, I think it’s important that those of us with no formal religious belief or none at all make our voices heard.
However, according to Brian Whiteside of the Humanist Association, some census enumerators are actively discouraging this. In yesterday’s Irish Times, he wrote that:
on the question of religion the enumerators have been instructed to guide people to fill in the form to reflect their background rather than their current position. How does this help us plan for Ireland’s future?
How indeed? If this is true (and anecdotal evidence in the comments to the column suggests that it is), then the CSO are actively encouraging people to give them an inaccurate picture of religious practice in this country, and it’s nothing short of a disgrace. As Whiteside says,
imagine a survey on car ownership. The question “Do you have a car?” is not asked; the survey goes straight to “What type of car do you have?” And then, someone who has no car is encouraged to say they have a Morris Minor because, way back, it was the traditional family car.
What do you think? Have you encountered CSO staff giving such advice? And if they want our religious background, how far back do they want us to go? Parents? Great-grandparents? Prehistoric ancestors? Maybe we should all go for “sun-worshiper”….
I feel very strongly on this (and wrote a post on it myself not so long ago, over at the homestead).
I have to say, though, I feel very frustrated at times at how easily-lead we are on this issue. There IS a no-religion box right there on the form; it’s not as if it’s hidden behind some dastardly origami foldings. I know the layout is rather suggestive in terms of asking “which religion” before giving the option of ticking “none”, but sometimes you have to despair that people can’t read the question fully and think about the appropriate answer before getting the pen out.
The fact that census enumerators are advising people to go on family heritage over actual personal beliefs is mind-boggling, though, absolutely mind-boggling. One has to ask whether the CSO has directed them to do so, or whether their own ignorance (or haste to get the job done) has lead them to give this advice?
Yeah, I was surprised that people are feeling the need to ask for advice on this, but then when you think of how closely religious background (not belief) and cultural identity are entwined in this country, both north and south, I suppose I can see where people are coming from.
It’s almost as if people are worried about giving the “correct” answers, as if the census was some sort of test they could be challenged on, isn’t it?
That someone might need to ask “What should I put down for this?” for such a personal question is … well, typically Irish, I suppose.
I wrote in Humanist. I regard it as a religious response. My wife wrote Christian but strictly speaking she isn’t: Atheist would be more accurate. I used to write in, following Bertrand Russell, Agnostic to the third degree. You do have to be careful about following the advice of other people. For all I know Russell may have recanted on his death bed.
Our census ennumerator was very nice and didn’t mention anything at all about religion. We did have to cut her off halfway through her spiel though as we’re actually going to be out of the country on honeymoon on the night of the Census. So we had just a brief ‘out of the country’ orange form to fill in, we don’t get to fill in the whole form at all.
If we were in the country though, we’d both be ticking Catholic, because we are. We were raised as Catholics and still attend Mass every week, so that’s what we’d be ticking. If we weren’t Catholic we’d be ticking ‘none’ or ‘no religion’ whatever the box is. Like Lisa says it’s very simple! I’ve a friend who’s agnostic who will be ticking ‘no religion’ I’ve other friends who are Mormon who will be ticking Mormon. The list goes on. Just tick the box!
I don’t see why people need to be instructed on what box to tick, we’re all adults, we’re all allowed to have our own beliefs surely? I don’t need the Census lady to tell me who or what I am thank you!
This is something I feel very strongly about and I agree that if the government is to receive a clear picture of the religious beliefs and practices of its people, and how to change our society to serve them, and at the very least, a true account of how people would describe themselves to each other, then I think the answer to this question must reflect today, not the day we were baptized or welcomed into a church, not even the way we felt when we left school or college, not the actions we took in our crazy twenties, but today, or more accurately, the 10 April 2011.
I object to the fact that the question posed in the census does not go something like this:
a. What religion were you born into?
b. Do you still practice that religion?
c. If no, what religion do you now practice? (with the option of ticking ‘no religtion’.
Because there is only one part to this question in the census this year, I will be ticking ‘no religion’.
BTW, our census enumerator didn’t mention this at all, and I didn’t ask him either.
Perhaps, though, this question is easier to answer if one was not forced into any particular practice by parents, grandparents etc.
Yep – that would be a much more sensible approach! There’s an awful, awful lot of people who don’t practice religion at all but will put down ‘Catholic’ because it’s what they were raised as and they haven’t formally left the church – which gives a completely misleading idea of how actively religious the country is.
The guy at my door said “and there’s an option for no religion” and i said yep delighted to hear it, and he smiled.
Had he encouraged me to do as rumoured I would have had harsh words and then reported him.
Even the addition of a question along the lines of, “Do you see yourself as spiritual rather than religious?” would make it easier for people to give an honest and accurate answer. If one finds oneself outside of any given enclave then it can feel mighty lonely on a census form and there are many inbuilt prejudices against freethinkers, whatever ideas they form for themselves, like what was once said to me – “I suppose you’re not anything – you believe in nothing”, not true and extremely prejudicial.
This is a good issue to raise and more people need to be made aware of it, and encouraged to answer truthfully.
Yes Alan, I agree completely. We need something… other. I don’t want to say “no religion” because I feel I’m spiritual, something of a pantheist if you will. Can’t imagine there’s a box for pantheist though…
Would be more inclined towards that myself, Jennie, a recognition that we’re not the be-all and end-all – unapologetic in my need for an other.
A little birdie told me once that when you write ‘atheist’ they often refer you back to your official bureaucratic stance of ‘Catholic’ (same in hospitals, etc.) as like it or lump it but the fact that our parents got holy water thrown on our heads at x-month old or marched us through the communion and confirmation process, you remain ‘Catholic’ despite any wavering beliefs or protestations as an adult. I have ONE friend who spent 15 years going through the only ‘official’ process to uncatholicise himself, which actually takes having to disprove two articles of faith, attend church shrinks and pay a few visits to Rome to be formally announced ‘sane’ before being able to ‘undo’ the baptism, communion and confirmation that was fcisted on him. He’s now one of the few formally recognised ‘atheists’ in the world. The Catholic church here in Ireland even paid for him to study theology modules in Maynooth in a bid to deconvince him. A stunning tale. I usually leave the religion box ‘blank’ so my lack of beliefs can’t be twisted to high heaven even more.
Forgive the Catholic slant to what I’m about to say.
JESUS CHRIST!
I concur with the JESUS CHRIST!
Of course it’s much easier to officially defect these days. Particularly with the help of the Count Me Out guys. Have done so myself.
I will be filling in Pagan, not that actually describing what kind of Pagan I am or if they will take it as religion and not a comment on Catholicism, like the person who wrote down None when I said Pagan on hospital admission. Took me nearly 6 months to get that changed to Other…
stupid phone: to make more sense of that comment: not that it will probably make any impact on how they count the Other. I once got a list of what people filled in and percentages (I asked the CSO nicely by email and got it back fairly promptly) and it was funny how Pagan was pretty much lumped in with Jedi and no clumping of various Pagan flavours
It’s true: Irish thinking is that pagan, atheist and agnostic are pretty much the same thing. Alongside Jedi, Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and Satanism.
When I told my mam I wasn’t going to Mass anymore, and that I was taking my daughter out of religious education classes, she asked me when I’d decided to become a pagan. To which I replied, “Oh, honestly, Mam, you’re … the point is … oh, just stick the kettle on.”
Yeah, people don’t really know how to respond when you say pagan. I’m looked at a bit strangely because in a hostile to Christian/Christianity situation I will often defend some of the issues or clarify. Christianity and I were just a bad fit but I did want it to fit because it’s part of my heritage and my ancestors fought to keep it alive. However once I realised that I was more a tree hugging hippie I was more comfortable in my skin.
My folks still don’t know. I do attend mass when I’m down there.
I have to say, I didn’t have this experience at all. Our enumerator didn’t mention religion and, for the record, I will be listing myself as “humanist”.
It’s an interesting one.
I’ve seen people say they are going to put down “Atheist” (under the “Other” option). But the question is what is your religion. Atheism is not a religion.
I agree with the Irish Times article that it should be framed “Do you have a religion?”
I also find it strange that many people want to dictate to others how they should define themselves. I’ve seen the argument that “if you don’t go to mass, tick no” But is going to mass the defining characteristic of being Catholic?
I no longer consider myself Catholic, but I know people, who may not live by the creed line for line, but personally feel like defining themselves as Catholic. I suspect this is a large group.
>> I’ve seen the argument that “if you don’t go to mass, tick no” But is going to mass the defining characteristic of being Catholic? <<
Well, something has to be. If not mass then what? Using the term 'practicing', at least, would be a useful distinction.
Maybe it’s the philosopher in me but I want to write, “What do you mean by religion?” What DO they mean? I doubt it’s an insight into your spiritual life is what they’re so assuming it’s which organisation you’re attached to – but it’s not clear. What happens if you leave it blank or write “none of your business”?
Anna, I worked as an enumerator on the 2006 Census.
Leaving the religion question ‘blank’ is where it could get more ‘interesting’ in terms of how an enumerator deals with that.
Part of my enumerators remit was to ensure all collected forms were FULLY completed. This meant standing at the doorstep and throwing a cursory eye over each page looking for blanks. Not easy when it’s pouring rain/the household has 8 members/the householder resents you looking at his info.
If a blank was found, we were duty bound to ask the particular question and get it answered. HOWEVER, two exceptions to this were outlined. 1. for the religion question. 2. for the question about how many children you had given birth to. If they were blank, we were told to not mention it and move on. My impression is that it was a sort of ‘ leave well enough alone’ approach, ie avoid getting into any sort of potential heavy debate or tricky discussion on the doorstep. I also have no way of knowing if this was my supervisors idea ( who dealt with approx 8 enumerators) or if it was a directive from on high.
It could be similar to the current ‘give background’ suggestion as you mentioned. Is it a self preservation-of- enumerator approach? Or a directive.
I actually had no-one who didn’t answer the question, so nothing arose. And I ended up in enough other funny/hairy/curious situations without it! Might throw a blogpost together about my adventures in Census taking…
I will be very interested however, to see how ‘religion’ blanks will be handled on collection this time around.
I was never Christened, God bless (!!) my hippie parents. Bizarrely enough, my children were “dedicated” at the Salvation Army, mainly because I didn’t want them to go through their youth having to explain their sinful selves to their goggle-eyed mates. However, I guess I was seeing their future through the prism of my tender years in the 70s and 80s. Now I wish I hadn’t. My little guy is a Buddhist, far as I can tell, and the big chap is a pantheist, I’d reckon, like me. Or perhaps a dastardly atheist, but don’t tell his granny…
[...] the beliefs they currently hold. On the Antiroom blog today author and journalist Anna Carey called for those with no formal religious beliefs to make their voices heard – it’s a call echoed by [...]
I have a dilemma.
I haven’t seen the form yet so I’m assuming there is a ‘religion’ question for each person resident in the house.
In the past I’ve categorised myself as pantheist and buddhist, this time I’ll probably choose ‘no religion’.
The young fella however goes to the local school, roman catholic-ethos. My preference would have been some sort of non-denom but couldn’t get into one and this ones local, he’s near to his friends etc. He knows my views on the sexism of the RCC and I do gently question the assumed gender of god and whether s/he exists / what it might be, that no one else can know his thoughts etc. I know, the poor fella. But I don’t make a big deal of it, he wanted to make his communion, he’s included in religious education and anyway I think belief in some sort of super-parent in the sky is nice for kids (no disrespect to believers intended) it makes death of loved ones easier for them until they are older and can understand better etc. He appears to believe in God for the moment anyway.
Do I put him down as ‘no religion’ thereby placing him according to his family background (what I would have a problem with if that is how you are supposed to answer), or do I put him down as ‘Christian’ or ‘Catholic’ which he currently is by accident of the educational structures of the State (which I also have issues with).
It’s a moral minefield!
[...] Antiroom put on a terrific post on the census the other day, more importantly on the subject of religion. Stats are always a pain, [...]
@Di, yes, it is a moral minefield. I really don’t know what to put down for my kids. Especially the baby – is it a question you can realistically answer? It’s all very well saying put the religion of the parents, what if they have different belief systems? I really don’t see why this question can’t be optional as it is in the UK.
Actually it’s just struck me that religion is not something you can decide on until you are an adult. Up till then it’s just the accident of your environment. He’ll be going down ‘no religion’ until he’s old enough to make a decision for himself because until then, he has no religion.
What do you think Cathy?
I’m not sure how old he is Di, but if he’s old enough to hve had his communion and old enoghto want to believe in something tht is not “yours” then I’d say you could ask him, and put down what he says. He seems to have his own views, which is wonderful, if somewhat frustrating especially when they collide with yours, as a parent.
Cathy, re the baby, I guess it’s the same as the parents: you’re making all decisions about your baby until he/she is old enough to do so for themselves, so go with your beliefs, or whatever you and your partner agree on.
Thanks Jennie, good idea, I’ll give that a go! It’ll be an interesting conversation anyway.
@Di
Think at 7 you can ask, as Jennie says. Interesting conversation at least.
@Jennie
But if you’re putting down the parent’s beliefs, why put down any at all? More I think about it, more daft it becomes.
In general, wondering, what’s the point of asking this? For example, your personal beliefs don’t necessarily reflect what services you want – you might be of religion X and feel you’d rather your child had a multi- or non- denominational education.
This country has such a weird attitude to every religion but Catholicism.. When I registered as a 1st year student in NUI I was a few days into my seventeenth year, and naive enough to put ‘agnostic’ down under religion on my forms. The students processing it had a laugh about it, passed it around, quite effectively confirming that college was to be no different to secondary.
A friend of my parents was asked his religion when a nurse was filling out forms to admit him to hospital for a minor procedure. When asked his religion he said, Presbyterian. She said, I’ll put down ‘No religion’, so.
AGH!
That reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Reverend Lovejoy presents Bart with a bowl of Unitarian ice cream. When Bart points out that the bowl is, in fact, empty, Reverend Lovejoy responds, “Exactly.”
I should mention that I am a Unitarian and I will be indicating this on my census form.
Hee! I suppose you know Matt Groening is a Unitarian too? There are a lot of Unitarian jokes in the Simpsons! I remember that when playing a computer game that involved converting people, Rod and Todd only got half points ( or possibly minus points) if someone turned into a Unitarian.
I love the Unitarian services (I first went to one for a feature I was writing about five years ago and liked it so much I kept going back and ended up being married there by the delightful Bill Darlison) but I go so infrequently that I don’t think I can count myself as an actual Unitarian. Though of course there are no strict rules for being a Unitarian, so maybe I do count. Anyway, it’s definitely the only religious denomination that feels anything close to right for me.
In the article by Brian Whiteside that you mention in regard to enumerators being instructed to guide people to fill in the form to reflect their background rather than their current position, you question the veracity of this claim, but then go on to suggest that there is anecdotal evidence in the comments of the column to suggest that it is. I’ve read though the comments to the article, and there is only one comment by somebody claiming to be an enumerator (Pádraig Ó ‘Meachaír ) and this person directly refutes Brian Whitesite’s claim. None of the other comments, appear to me at least, to provide any anecdotal evidence to substantiate the claim as you suggest in this article.
From the comment thread to the piece (it’s only the ninth comment down, I’m not sure how you missed it):
Yes, I must have missed this one. Although, in that particular instance, I’m not sure why the commenter would not simply have ticked the ‘No religion’ box.
None the less, I feel it would have been more appropriate to contact the central statistics office for clarification of this point, rather to simply rely on the readers comments which are conflicting and, I would maintain, do not amount to ‘anecdotal evidence’.
I’m not sure how you define anecdotal evidence, but my definition of it matches this wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence. The woman’s story in the Irish Times comments certainly fits the bill. That’s why I said “anecdotal evidence” rather than “evidence” and said “if this is true” in the post. Also, I was writing an opinion-based blog post based on the Irish Times story, asking readers what they thought and whether they had encountered this supposed practice, not a news report, which would of course have involved checking with the CSO.
Ah, but are you a catholic athiest or a protestant athiest, as my dad was once asked…..
Talk about skewing the stats! Unbelievable.
For what it’s worth I contacted the CSO and they say you should complete the religion question according to how you feel about your religious beliefs or lack thereof on the night of
Sunday April 10th. It’s entirely subjective.
If none of the options provided fit you, write your option in the space provided.
Same applies to kids.
Question is an ethno-cultural one.
Thought ye’d like to know!