Once upon a time, during the mid-1980s, I was a fresh-faced and enthusiastic young undergraduate and subsequently post-graduate student at UCD. In 1987 I, along with 300 of my peers, two-thirds of them men, graduated with a Bachelor of Commerce degree. Back then, as now, many graduates from my class entered the big accountancy firms around Dublin and were delighted to have the opportunity to gain experience and carve out a lucrative career as an accountant. I, along with about a hundred others, decided to stay on at UCD and study for a master’s degree, an MBS in marketing in my case.
We were intelligent and eager and we operated in a perfect meritocracy. Those that worked hardest and proved to be the brightest would graduate with the best degrees and, perhaps more significantly in the midst of a deep recession, would have the best chance of securing employment here in Ireland.
I thrived in this environment. I enjoyed the subjects I was studying and found that the combination of written exam and thesis based research suited me well. I graduated first in my class and was awarded a research fellowship for my thesis on the policies and strategies adopted by financial institutions in attracting lump sum investments. I was for that brief time first among equals and it felt good. I was hired as a business consultant by a small Dublin firm and all was well with the world. Then reality bit hard.
My male bosses were very fair & decent blokes. They treated me very well and if there was a tendency at the end of a working day for “the lads” to head down Leeson Street then I didn’t really mind it. I was happy to go home or meet with my own friends to be honest. However, some of the clients were an entirely different matter. I frequently attended meetings where I was simply ignored. I was criticised for “my” choice of biscuits. I was even complimented on the “typing and presentation” alone of one business plan that I had compiled in its entirety. I was rarely spoken to directly; clients always addressed themselves to my boss or any random male colleague that happened to be in the room. Once when I went on a business trip with my boss, who was at least a decade my senior, our bags were put into the same bedroom. He at least had the grace to look as mortified as I felt.
It came to a head one evening when I arrived at a client meeting and the male client handed accounts spreadsheets out to everybody in the room – except me; I was the lead consultant on the account and it was not an accidental oversight. I walked out. I didn’t care about the consequences and I fully expected to be fired the next day. I was called to the boardroom – and given a pay rise. The guys I worked for were genuinely decent and valued my input. However, I needed more varied experience and left to work for a major multinational. There, I was on the receiving end of a disguising, filthy phone call from a male colleague in relation to something I was wearing one day, I had to campaign to have a “girly” calendar taken down from the wall of the warehouse – a place I had to visit every day, and on one memorable occasion I found myself alone with a male business associate in what I believed to be a very compromising, dangerous situation, one in which I felt the need to beg to be taken back to my place of work.
After a couple of years I applied for a job in the female dominated market research industry and there I thrived. I rose to the position of Client Service Director in the London office and my success there took the sting out of the occasional casual incident of sexism perpetrated by older male clients. I can honestly say that Irish men were far more prone to this behaviour than their very professional UK counterparts in my experience. One particular star in the Irish business community used to refer to myself and my female colleagues as “the spice girls” and reply to his emails during our presentations. As I progressed I was responsible for many younger male members of staff and I was always conscious of treating them with respect. I strived to never make a casually sexist remark or pass them over in favour of my female co-workers.
Therefore, and bearing these experiences and many more like them in mind, you will perhaps forgive me if I just can’t see the “funny side” or “bit of craic” in the treatment of these 13 unfortunate women working for PWC in Dublin. It’s tough out there in the testosterone fuelled business world. In my experience by merely being young and female (yes ageism is alive and well too) these women will start out at a disadvantage and will need to strive to be taken as seriously as their male counterparts. This horrible, undermining, casually sexist behaviour must be taken seriously and cannot be condoned. I am perfectly prepared to be accused of being a humourless old harridan if that’s what it takes to raise awareness of this issue and eradicate such inappropriate behaviour from the workplace. I really hope we succeed but we’ve not come very far in the past twenty-five years sadly.

Well said! And allow me to join you on the harridan bench since I was called a prude yesterday because I raised an eyebrow over this supposed hilarity.
Thanks Arlene. This particular bench is getting pretty crowded today and I’m very glad to be here.
Well said.
Sadly this type of sh*t happens everywhere. I was the Director of Internal Marketing at an LA-based Internet company several years back. One day my male boss walked over, handed me $3000 in cash and told me to go to Sax Fifth Avenue to buy his wife a gift card for their wedding anniversary. When I looked at him like he was insane, he actually TOSSED a $100 bill at me and said, “Well if you’re going to be like THAT, go ahead and get yourself something while you’re at it.” I should have told him to go crawl up his own ass and die, but truthfully I went. I honestly felt I had little choice in that male-dominated company and I couldn’t afford to lose my job.
I ended up taking 5 hours to run that little errand, and took my best friend out to a nice, long lunch with that $100. A year later I left the company and have never looked back.
That’s astounding (awful for you): to be put in that position and easy enough in the cold light of day to bear the ‘you should’ve told him to piss off’ thing but it’s not easy or practical in a work situation to do this.
That’s dispicable. Sounds like something straight out of Mad Men. I totally understand your unwillingness to make an issue of it at the time. The company lost an undoubtedly excellent employee as a result. This is very common. Women leave a company citing “personal reasons” because they just don’t want to get into it. Male bosses shrug & say “babies”. Therefore the real issue often doesn’t come to the fore. Everyone loses out.
The spelling is ‘despicable’ – the less sloppy we are the less likely to be derided. As I have said – doing a good job is paramount. Something artsy, media types possibly don’t understand.
Too many comments to read them all.
This comment just sticks in my head the most i guess, I’m not anti-feminist or here to troll, but this comment smacks of ‘OMG THIS HAPPENED TO ME BUT OH GOSH WASN’T IT DANDY THAT I GOT PAID ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR MY TROUBLE OH WOE IS ME (BUT HE’S STILL A SEXIST)’
You’re moral fibre was really tested and you were disgusted so much you took the money anyway? You go girl!
My opinion on the PWC saga is that the media are to blame for the fallout. This kind of thing happens on email, beside watercoolers, in canteens throughout the country. From BOTH sexes. I work with predominantly women and although there never has been anything of this exact nature, i’ve listened in on countless ‘oh i would’ conversations and received many an email bearing willies and topless ripped men. Get on with it.
It was the media who printed the photos of these women. The media who has put them in the limelight.
The guys who started the email are idiots, that’s a given. Idiots for getting caught out.
No, they are idiots for having a view of women that sees them not as colleagues but as sex-objects.
I think your reaction to An American in Ireland is ridiculous. There is a power imbalance that means women put in situations like this feel pressured to go along e.g. to laugh along with idiots like the PWC boys. That’s how you progress in your career even if you don’t like it – because the same idiots ‘grow up’ to be bosses and more senior idiots. One woman may feel particularly powerless to change an organisational culture.
I agree that the media (the Independent in particular) has acted disgracefully. Condemning the PWC idiots while at the same time publishing the photos of these unfortunate women. I shudder to think how the Sunday Independent will treat it.
Bernard, I’m afraid YOU are the idiot here.
What you are missing is that I had three choices (if you can even call them that): Do as I was told or refuse or refuse and walk out. The latter would have left me unemployed and in a situation where I would not qualify for unemployment benefits (in the US, if you quit your job you cannot collect benefits) and unable to afford my rent/bills/etc. until I found a new job. Refusing or making a fuss about it would have resulted in some form of harassment from said boss and most likely a good number of our fellow MALE colleagues. I’m not saying I know for sure that I’d been fired, but it ultimately could have led to that (under the guise that I wasn’t doing my job properly or some other hashed-up excuse).
The point is that sometimes – not always – women are treated as second-class in the workplace, and it isn’t always about the obvious. Sure, this particular case was blatant but it came from someone who consistently showed his underlying disdain and lack of respect for his female colleagues. He was also in a very high position of power and had proven many times in the past that it was his way or the highway. Taking all that into consideration, perhaps you can open up that pea-sized brain of yours and see beyond the narrow take you have on it.
Or Option number 4? What if you had gone about carrying out the ridiculous task assigned to you, returned to the office with the 3000 dollar gift and in the same breath pushed a crisp hundred dollar bill across the table also.
You took the money, had a jolly old lunch and you got the last laugh?
Pea sized brain? Calling me an idiot?
You retort with personal attacks? That speaks more than what i could say, as i simply do not know you. I was merely commenting on your actions as you described them.
My point is that where i admit that it would be typically in its nature be one sided, but having worked with and working with women, this kind of thing happens every day in reverse. Maybe I am working with the wrong kind of women, it would seem.
You are right, I shouldn’t resort to name-calling. For that I apologize.
At the time, I took the long lunch to make a point after a series of disrespectful episodes such as the one I described. Though it wasn’t as thought-out at the time, I suppose in some way I was tired of always smiling my way through such treatment and taking the high road as that was getting me nowhere. It was a rebellious move on my part, my way of giving my boss the proverbial finger. Weak but the “best” I felt I could do given the circumstances.
I don’t think the writer here is saying that reverse sexism doesn’t exist or that men are not mistreated in the workplace. It happens, sure. But I don’t think it’s a common problem like it is for women.
How does the existence of sexism against males justify just getting on with it when something like this happens? It’s wrong. You call pwc guys idiots for getting caught but you don’t acknowledge it was unacceptable to treat colleagues like this.
Always funny how people start comments with statements like “I’m not anti-feminist but” and then demonstrate they are.
Declan by your standards I couldn’t fart without you painting me as a male chauvinistic pig.
My point was emails and communications similar to the PWC ones happen every day, in every office and go both ways, actually in my job I would receive more emails with semi naked men than anything else. Fair enough they aren’t as intrusive or as personal as the ones that this post refers to. I am merely stating this ‘sexism’ goes both ways, easily. Do i get in a huff if i get an email off a female colleague that has an advent calendar picture revealing the male anatomy parts? No. But treating it as the same standards as Eleanor in the original post i should be horrified and scream blue murder from the roofs.
I don’t consider myself anti-feminist but if you consider me to be, that’s your opinion. I would be anti ‘selective’ feminism. That was my main point regarding the lady i replied to being treated like X,Y and Z on one hand but yet on the other hand having no problem taking the 100 dollars.
My opinion is, yes this kind of thing happens all the time and everywhere, and whilst EVERYONE judges other people on their looks and personality, these idiots put it in an email and got caught.
Bernard I think the context and the wider environment matters here. I did not “scream blue murder” about having to hold business meetings in a room where a calendar depicting naked women adorned the wall. I lodged a dignified and professionally worded complaint stating that I found this undermining and objectionable. That complaint was upheld and the calendar was removed.
As to the wider environment, these objectionable actions take place in a world where, as Anna has already pointed out, about 85% of senior management are men. Women make up just 30% of all managers, senior and otherwise, 10% of board directors in Irish companies are female, Only 3% of the CEOs of this year’s Fortune Top 500 companies are women. Only 14% of Irish TDs are women. Women’s earnings in Ireland are still, on average, 86% of men’s. Just under a quarter of Irish senior civil servants are female.
I firmly believe that casual sexism and the objectification of women feeds into the reality that us women do not progress as easily as our male counterparts in almost all walks of life. Just because something “happens every day” that does not make it right. This was an abuse of power in an unequal situation – not a bit of friendly banter. Also I have never heard any woman refer to a group of men simply as genetalia. I don’t think there was too much judging “on personality” going on here.
Hi Eleanor!
This is a very well-written, balanced piece. You have highlighted precisely what is so wrong about the PWC emails without resorting to hysteria or hyperbole.
Well done.
Hazel
Very honest and great piece of writing.
Well said. Any woman who has her business audited or advised by PWC should demand that these boys have no dealings on her account. In an ideal world they’ll be fired. We’ll see how the old boy nepotistic network deals with it because you can be sure that these small fry are just the generation behind their dads, uncles, cousins and fellow club members.
Thanks Conan, Yes it will be interesting to see how this is handled. PWC has launched an investigation and certainly appears to be taking this matter seriously. The rot has to be stopped -perhaps this is the begining of the end.
Terrific piece Eleanor. No I don’t think anyone can call you a ‘humourless old anything’. I have just seen the front of the Irish Independent and am appalled that the photos of those young women have been published.
I would be equally appalled if this had happened to 13 young men.
Thanks Tracie. Absolutely agree. If a group of young men were treated in this way it would be equally shameful. Rarely if ever happens though.
Another harridan here.
I would just like to point out that a great deal of media seems to go to lengths to reduce the impact of this kind of behaviour. Why did the Independent reprint all the womens’ photos, except to allow the same kind of ‘rating’? And Ray Darcy happily downplayed the incident, insisting that women do the same thing as well.
Ah, reminds me of the aggressive moralising tone of tabloids complaining about teachers having relations with teenage students (described in lurid detail) on page one, and showing a topless teenage girl on page three!
Welcome to the bench.
Not to mention the very unhelpful comments made by Ryan Tubridy and (I’m told) Tom Dunne on national radio.
Eleanor,
Great blog entry. I’ve also been told ‘ah sure they were having a laugh in fairness’. My evil sidelong glances and laser eyes managed to portray that this was not a laughing matter and I’m sitting firmly on this crowded bench.
Thanks Claire. Welcome to the bench.
This is a great piece Eleanor – well written and clearly very personal. It has also given me an insight into a world I never (thankfully it seems) ventured into.
My own career was in travel, teaching and later PR – all industries where women while not quite dominant are at least plentiful! Therefore I never, ever encountered the kind of sexist abuse you did. I can honestly say that my experience has always been in ‘meritoctracies’. If you were good enough, you got ahead, regardless of your sex.
Therefore I can only imagine how awful it must be to be overlooked and treated as some minion rather than an equal player. I hope that all mothers of daughters realise just how important it is for the next generation of women to demand the respect that is their right.
B
Well said. the other really sad part about this article is that by publishing the photos of the women on the front of the independent, they are now being ‘rated’ in many workplaces around the country. The indo ‘lads’ in the newsroom are every bit as bad.
Thanks Dermot. I agree that the coverage has exacerbated the problem.
Another addition to the harridan bench. Totally inexcusable behaviour out of ‘professional’ men.
I possibly should have put ‘men’ in quotation marks too.
I have had similar experiences, and would agree with your observation that it tends to be more acceptable in Irish business to behave like this. I recall the look of horror on the face of one visiting director from London when my boss asked me in front of him “Hey did you want me for something? I mean, I know you *want* me…” The shock on the English guy’s face was visible, but he probably just shrugged his shoulders afterwards and thought hey, I guess that’s how it goes down in Dublin. I’ve endless other cringe-worthy examples. It all gets passed off as good craic. Uggh.
Another “well said” from me. What bothers me about a lot of the radio coverage of this story is people saying “Sure, they were just being lads”, as if the poor eejits couldn’t help themselves and we should all just accept that this is the way it is.
But what has bothered me most about much of the radio debate is the fact that this story is presented as a one-off instance of a bunch of goons fancying their colleagues and talking about it in a crass way, rather than it being part of something much bigger, of a widespread culture in which women at work, where they should expect to be seen as equals by their colleagues, are still being viewed as “clunge” and automatically sexualised. This is not just about fancying hot people – everyone does that. It’s about how the new female employees at PWC were automatically seen and valued by some of their colleagues – they were judged by how f*ckable they were. And shame on every single newspaper who printed their photos for continuing to offer up these women for public scrutiny.
And I’m glad you mentioned your positive experiences of majority-female offices. There’s this myth that women are horrible to each other at work, and in 12 years I just haven’t found this to be the case. I’ve worked in mixed offices and, for three years, in a totally female office, and had good and bad experiences in both, but there was something really funny and friendly and, when we weren’t stressed out of our minds about deadlines, socially relaxed about the all female office that I really liked.
Thanks Anna. I totally agree that fancying people is totally normal and I’m all for it. I love a bit of flirtation on equal terms but this is entirely different and a total abuse of an unequal power situation. Those who can’t see the difference should think carefully about the language used and the underlying message here.
I agree. It’s not about being ‘too PC’ or po-faced about fancying people – it’s about not viewing human beings as objects and feeding a culture that leads to ‘sex tourism’ in Thailand.
The most annoying thing about this whole issue is that the girls photos are being circulated in the press, on twitter and all over facebook. I just graduated last week, while we were in the queue to get our degree, one of the lads in the rows commented to his friends, “this is like america’s next top model, where are all the lads in this course”. All i could do was roll my eyes an get on with it. I’m pretty sure i’m going to face this alot in the coming years.
I know one of the guys who forwarded on the PWC email, i know that he is an absolute ignaramous, he has no social skills and prides himself as a ‘ladies man’.
I know im more mature than him and could care less about getting in with the popular crowd to do well, although im not sure how further I’d get in the work place because i’m a young woman.
Ena I wish you the very best in your career. Ignore the idiots and rise above the sexism if at all possible. I really hope you encounter no more of this type of horrible behaviour. If we all speak out then perhaps we can combat it – it’s tough to do it all alone.
Great post, Eleanor. It’s such bad form that that papers have printed the photos, while simultaneously saying how terrible the whole thing is. Anyone who would downplay this as “a bit of craic” needs a serious dose of cop on.
Thanks Kitty. Cop-on seems in short supply sometimes – I was stunned by the attitudes of some comentators who should know better. Men with mothers, sisters, wives, girlfriends and daughters. Men who have the ears and eyes of the nation and who have chosed to use this power irresponsibly. What a missed opportunity this is!
Well said Eleanor. You reminded me of several cringey events from my late-80s office past…
What do you think of their photos reprinted on page one of the papers today?? I couldn’t believe it when I saw them. Were they even asked for their permission?
Regardless of how embarrassed/insulted/even flattered any of them may have been originally, this obviously takes it to a whole new needless level of circulation….
Apart from noticing the curious fact that all the girls have the same hairstyle – these photos almost make me wonder – does PWC have a ‘looks’ recruitment policy?? We must surely assume they dont. Which means that unless these girls were the full complement of new recruits, there are some new employees who clearly didn’t ‘make the grade’. How about that for a confidence boost as you start out in your new career.
Also, if the list had consisted of, how shall we say, the Bottom 10 instead of the Top Ten, would their pictures have been splashed on all the page ones today?
So, we’re back to Looks sell Papers . Sigh…
Thanks Gina. Terrible to see those photos splashed across the pages of the papers, including some you would expect better of. A big mistake in my opinion and adding to the humiliation.
Delighted to read this, as the debate on Matt Cooper’s show about it yesterday evening with a lawyer and a Heggald rep was even more dispiriting than the slot on economics.
If this bench is allegedly for humourless harridans, how come so many funny people are sitting on it?
I brought snacks.
What I want to know is this: if the lads were ‘just being lads’, how come none of the men in my varied social and professional circle would even think to do that, let alone go through with it? That argument, the one where men can’t help themselves, it’s just as insulting to men as it is to women.
Anyway, all the snacks I brought to this bench invite really cheap innuendo. Hope that’s okay with all you other harridans. Nuts, anyone?
Exactly! The world is full of decent men who don’t act like this, and it’s insulting to them to claim that being a complete arse who doesn’t see women as human beings is the default setting for all men.
Thanks Jane, Cheese ball anyone? Yes I’m delighted to say that all of the men I respect in this world, including my lovely husband, are appalled by this horrid behaviour. I’m proud to know the men who stand up to this.
And Eleanor, thanks for writing such a great piece. I hope a lot of young women see it!
Thanks Eleanor. Great post and I’m so relieved I’m not alone in my feelings about this! I’ve always worked in a predominantly male environment and am happy to say have never had any negative experiences. I thought the Matt Cooper piece was too blasé.
Brilliant piece Eleanor and oh so timely! So glad one of the anti-roomers covered this. Your experiences sound frightening ‘typical’ (but what a career you’ve had too!) As I said on Twitter earlier, only gobshite media would publish these women’s pics adding another ‘layer of laugh’ to the story, unecessarily in my view. ‘Sexism’ cases are always seen as hilarious no matter the form. I was surprised and slightly sickened to hear Dearbhail McDonald on Tonight With Vincent Browne last night (a great journalist who I generally admire) say that the women would have careers in ‘modelling’ if they fancied it – cos the pics looked so good. Or maybe I just have high expectations of successful women who’ve ploughed a furrow in a field that’s usually the preserve and reserve of male journalists. This is an important (and serious) topic for any working woman I feel. We’ve all had to put up with sexist shit in the workplace in one form or other. As for the ‘just being lads’ monicker, you could easily apply this to the flashing radio jockey on the plane, old men pissing in laneways, mid-life crisis maulers in lapdancing clubs or recidivist kerb-crawlers who need to get their nuts off on a Tuesday evening down the side of a smelly canal. What does ‘just being lads’ actually mean? Perhaps the newspaper Editors should take a similar action in publishing the mugshots of the ‘lads’ who sunk our country into total bankruptcy with their dire handle on macho economics under the heading: Testosterone Filled Their Heads Not Just Their Balls. And we can pick out the top ten totty who should actually go to jail. The newspaper report also mentioned that the main men responsible for the email were not available for comment (nowhere to be found) but you can be rest assured they weren’t off making tea or collecting someone else’s dry cleaning. And because it’s Ireland and women are generally second class citizens in the workplace, they probably won’t be fired either. They might just receive a formal telling off memo, typed up by a ‘very attractive’ secretary…
Thanks June. I totally agree with you. I do feel sorry for Dearbhail McDonald. She was really put on the spot and its difficult to criticise your employer live on air like that. However, there is safety in numbers and we all need to stand up and be counted. I’m Spartacus!
Thanks Eleanor. I’m not sure that the PWC women should take comfort from the solidarity in this excellent post and comments, or read it and weep…
What woman hasn’t had some level of hassle at work, except perhaps in female-dominated workplaces?
Some years ago, as a fledgling journalist, I went for a job interview at a big daily newspaper in South Africa and the editor said: “You’re an attractive woman. How do you feel about men looking at you? How do you handle it? What do you say to them?”
I was gobsmacked but he just smiled happily to himself then offered me the job on the spot. I’m ashamed to say I accepted, too dumbstruck to think straight, too stunned to believe I was being told “babe, we’re gonna perv you every day”and anyway, I really, really wanted the job — great career move, national profile etc — but I called his secretary later to back out.
Yes, instead I stayed in my little job on a local paper until another decent opportunity popped up some years later, effectively stalled because I said no to being objectified.
Just lads being lads, ‘eh?
Brave move Jennie. Well done for refusing to take the shit. Imagine how unpleasant that environment would have been. Really tough to have to forego such a seemingly great opportunity.
Fantastic piece, Eleanor. I am just at the beginning of my career (I’m 23 and work in the non-profit sector) and have already been witness to so much sexism and ageism. I cringe when I hear young women accept this as their lot in life. I’m sure PWC will try to pass this off as the rogue behaviour of a few. But without doubt, a culture of sexism exists in the company. Apparently, this happens in every office of the Big Four every year although the PWC associates were particularly stupid to get caught. If anything, pictures of the men should be printed in the paper so we can all have a look at how hot or not they are.
I’ll join you all on the Harridan bench.
Thanks Clare, welcome to the bench. It saddens me to hear that young women are still experiencing this.
Sorry I did not read this earlier.
Thanks for posting, I sent a response on Twitter and
actually don’t want to say anymore on it.
BUT the more people who address it the better and use
their unions too , because oftimes we forget that there
are rules that help everyone to function at work.
Well said, Eleanor.
I think this #pwc story won’t change the core behaviour itself, but if enough bad publicity is generated by it a) at corporate level and b) through a practical message to the Herald et al who unforgivably published the girls’ pics (i.e. let bad publicity impact on sales figures then it will at least make people think more carefully about their actions. Easy for me to talk, not being on the receiving end of this kind of shit, but I honestly believe that lessons learned this way (essentially at the cash till) can effect change over time in what’s perceived as wrong and right.
In the meantime, speaking out like this may give the ‘outed’ girls some support, and make the crude idiots think twice. I have a funny feeling that that won’t be enough for #pwc now. Some sharp lessons about to be learned.
Thanks Nick. It’s really heartening to hear so many decent, reasonable men like you objecting to this behaviour. We all lose out as a society in the long run. Here’s to a better future.
Squeeze up, there must be room for one more on the harridan bench!
Welcome Emma, budge up everyone.
Good piece, Eleanor, and I agree with most of what people have written in response.
I was sent a link today, so I saw the email, and the names of the sender, forwarders, and so on – and the shamefully reproduced photographs – and the many online comments along the lines of “I bet it was the ones who were left off who complained” and “well number x is quite cute” and “do they all go to the same hairdresser?” and so on. Sigh of 140km ph.
I know it’s not the substantive issue but could the lackwit who asked people to take his signature off if they were forwarding the mail not figure out how to do it himself? That would certainly make me question PWC’s recruitment policy.
Thanks Antonia, Yes those comments utterly miss the point.
Good point. Maybe all he had to do was sound convincing, have a BSc and wear a red tie to get the job in the first place. Have the men on the email been named? If so, where are their pics in the paper, on the front page, obviously.
I personally know many of these women and some of the guys who it got forwarded to as well. Completely agree that the newspapers were completely wrong to publish the pictures, these women are completely humiliated and upset by whats gone on.
Really sorry but not surprised to hear that the women feel humiliated and upset. It is so important for them to realise that they are not alone and that they have support. I really hope this blog post helps.
Yeah Eleanor, I’ll pass it on! They aren’t people who put themselves forward in the public eye, they still have to go into work every morning, to a job that they’ve only started and not settled into yet with the whole country talking about this. The men are 100% responsible but the situation was ‘copeable’ until the papers published the pictures.
Thank you for that thoughtful and thought-provoking post.
Those lads, while misogynstic, puerile twats, were at least only intending that email to be viewed by a few people. The editors of the Herald and the Independent, however, knew exactly what they were doing by putting those girls on the front page. A message of “G’wan lads, have a goo at these and see what you reckon yourselves” was very much implicit. Should put another nail in the coffin of the Indo’s claims of being a broadsheet, anyway.
Having said all this, i had a female boss who once sat in the pub with a gay colleague playing a game called ‘Fuck or Die’, where they named all the male members of staff and said if they would rather sleep with that person or die. I was too busy worrying about which list I was on to take offence when I was told about this, but I know it would’ve seemed a whole lot nastier if they’d done it by email.
Wow that female boss sounds like some piece of work. Was she trying to be “just one of the lads”. How tragic for her.
oh and i was shocked in work today how many of the female staff felt sorry for the men involved and thought the girls should be flattered they were in the top 10
I am very surprised at the comments on this blog. I am not sure if the author is alot older than me (although I am 30 so I doubt much older). I have never once experienced a modicum of sexism in my workplace and I really don’t think it is a problem in this day and age – I don’t know any of my friends that have had a problem with it. Sexism is a thing of the past in my experience. The carry on of the pwc boys is stupid of them but not offensive and is completely normal. Women just embarass themselves by getting into a tizz about things like this – it is embarassing.
Claire,
You have obviously been very lucky and your experience is very unusual, sadly. “The author”, ie me, is 44, hardly a decrepit awld wan, and I am not in the least embarrassed about taking a stand. Nor am I in “a tizz”. Would you feel the same if the incident was racist instead of sexist? If not why not? I hate to burst your bubble but sexism most certainly is “a problem in this day and age”. Normalising offensive behaviour makes it more rather than less offensive in my opinion. Did you ever stop to wonder why so few women make it to the top in every walk of life. Is it because we are less able? Is it “babies”? Perhaps it’s plain old fashioned discrimination.
Like Claire, I’ve also had the good fortune not to experience sexism in the workplace to date (and I’m 29, so am guessing we’ve been working women for similar lengths of time). I’ve worked in three separate places where men were in the vast majority, and have always been treated as an equal by colleagues and clients alike.
But, unlike Claire, I wouldn’t dream of writing off workplace sexism as a thing of the past simply because neither I nor my friends had direct experience of it. I don’t know any of the thirteen PWC employees, but there’s nothing “normal” about what they’ve gone through since Tuesday.
Room for one more on the Harridan Bench?
no bubbles burst – don’t worry! my work place has a majority of women partners in a male dominated practice. i’m sorry you had a bad experience and hope you can move on and experience a better and more modern workplace.
ps – 44 is no where near auld wan territory!
ps most women in my walk of life have made it to the top. the fact this did not happen for you does not make it sexism – sorry.
Really, Claire? What “walk of life” is that, then? Because official figures show that in the EU, about 85% of senior management are men. Women make up just 30% of all managers, senior and otherwise. Only 3% of the CEOs of this year’s Fortune Top 500 companies are women. Only 14% of Irish TDs are women. Women’s earnings in Ireland are still, on average, 86% of men’s. Just under a quarter of Irish senior civil servants are female. Did everyone else just not live up to their potential?
arlene- you clearly did not understand my post. as i said – bless!
Claire is very skilled at ‘special pleading’ i.e, if something has not happened to her it must not exist.
Here’s the thing Claire, sexism is very much a thing of the present, for evidence allow me to present you with the fact that you’re commenting on a post derived from its very existence.
I don’t view what happened as sexism and my comment is expressing surprise it was viewed as such – apologies, though that was clear.
I understood you perfectly, you don’t view men offering up the images of new staff as ‘new clunge’ and rating their appearance as sexism. Most other people here do.
Instead of explaining why you don’t view it as such, you are content to be argumentative, wield an anecdotal special pleading sword ‘hasn’t happened to me so it doesn’t happen’ and then attempt to be patronizing with ‘bless’.
Anna C, I suspect you won’t be answered with anything except anecdotal ‘walk of life’ evidence, but I do appreciate your taking the time to present facts and figures.
You don’t view a bunch of lads rating the brand new female employees for their attractiveness as “sexism”?
What on earth would have to happen for you to view it as sexism?!
I’m wondering when the Herald, Indo & Mail will reproduce photos of the adonisis involved.
I know it’s not the point, but I’m seriously angry that these women have been exposed like this and the ones who behaved badly get to remain annonymous. I suspect that’s because it’s all lads together, in the auditing firms, in the newspapers, on the radio.
It really is time for women to stop meekly accepting that we’ve got to stop talking about feminism.
We do have to stop talking about feminism – it is 2010 and no longer necessary. Who the hell experiences sexism anymore? WE need to stop complaining and get on with our jobs -like men do.
Claire, please admit that this is a parody?
What were these girls doing but getting on with their jobs? And so today they’re splashed all over the world with their names, and in some cases, deeply offensive comments.
Point me to the man who had that. Tell me about the male intern who has been humiliated like this?
How can these girls feel comfortable working in an environment where they know how they’re being spoken about? They can probably feel the looks.
This is happening because they’re women and men are indulged in this kind of behaviour constantly.
Many women experience routine sexism, aren’t you so lucky that you don’t.
I’m currently lucky that I work in a sphere where women are in a majority and where much of the management are women. I’ve worked in places where this isn’t so and I prefer this.
I’ve also worked somewhere within this century where I was told that the manager liked his “girls in skirts” and I told them that I didn’t wear skirts and had to fight for my right not to wear skirts. And I was working an office job, in marketing. I hope this never happens to you. I hope your work life continues to be pleasant.
Yes, reclaim the F-word! We’re campaigning to do just that here at the antiroom. Lets make society fairer and we’ll all benefit.
Claire, isn’t this sexism? isn’t that why we are talking about it? Would you like your photo in the front of the paper with the country talking about you and further strangers commenting on your looks on the internet?
“reclaim the F-word!”
Eleanor, could you have a post someday explaining what feminism is, what it hopes to achieve, how it differs from, say, humanism or liberalism, etc? I come here partly to expose myself to this perspective but I don’t understand the basics. I don’t know what a dream feminist world would look like. (Thanks!) It might be useful to explain to some of us what it’s all about.
Shane, I think that is a great idea. I’m very concerned about the way that feminism is much maligned. For me it’s all about another F-word – fairness. I suspect that there is probably some overlap with humanism & liberalism. It would be interesting to hear what feminism means to other women. I feel a group post coming on. Watch this space!
Nice one, thanks! A few other thoughts:
Do you believe that there are biologically determined behavioural differences between men and women? (Or are all perceived differences caused by socialisation only?)
How would we recognise an equal society, since equal access to power might not result in equal participation in it? (I mean, women and men may choose to avoid certain careers for reasons that have nothing to do with discrimination.)
I know some women who are opposed to abortion on moral and religious grounds, but who otherwise oppose sexual prejudice. Is there room in feminism for these ideas? Can religious conservatives, for example, still be feminist?
What should men do to improve things? (And how do men stand to benefit from the changes you want to see?)
Great if ye could discuss some of that stuff!
Kate – links to the Facebook profiles of some of those involved were posted on Twitter today. I’d imagine they’ll make the papers tomorrow.
I see you’re correct and that we can see and judge these losers for ourselves.
Not very satisfactory. I had hoped to just make a point that it seemed unfair that these girls were being exposed in this way while the actual culprits weren’t.
This is just a figleaf for the gutter press to deflect attention from publishing those photos.
Well I think that’s an interesting point, Claire. It is, like, soooo embarrasing when women go to work in a professional environment and then complain when their photos are circulated so their attractiveness can be judged.
It’s not like they were even in the nip!
Everyone who objects to this is an embarrassing old person with, probably, like, hairy legs or really ugly or something?
Your recourse to insults kind of proves my point – sorry!
Have I missed something? Not finding any insults. Perhaps Claire is looking for an excuse to storm off in a huff because she realises her stance is indefensible?
Sorry Catherine – the insults were veiled – if you need help in pointing them out just shout – subtlety is not for everyone – bless!
Actually Claire, I’m embarrassed for you that you used an expression like “getting in a tizz” after reading such a well-structured, thought-provoking, yet diplomatic article.
Thank you, Eleanor, for a great post.
“What I want to know is this: if the lads were ‘just being lads’, how come none of the men in my varied social and professional circle would even think to do that, let alone go through with it? That argument, the one where men can’t help themselves, it’s just as insulting to men as it is to women.”
Agreed. None of my male friends would send emails like this. This “they’re just being guys” line is bullshit, and horribly demeaning to men.
Well said Annie! No man I know & respect would want to be lumped in with these particular gentlemen. That pathetic “boys will be boys” reaction to this whole incident is indeed nothing short of anti-men. Therefore the whole sorry episode is anti-people & why would we condone such a bizarre stance. Myself & my husband would certainly strive to bring our sons up to behave more responsibly and logically than that.
anti-people – ye gods!
Excellent piece. There is a bright side. I do think this will be a problem for PwC and their credibility. I got a grovelling email from them this afternoon whcih must have gone to everyone on their mailing list. I know that this is a slightly depressing reflection but I think that the fact that PwC are worried about losing business shows that things have improved quite a bit since I started work in the early 1990s. It’s not acceptable and a lot of people, women and men feel that way.
Thanks Anne. I am really encouraged to hear that. Perhaps there is a silver lining at last!
I would like to say “please tell me Claire is a troll” but unfortunately I suspect most of us have come across women who feel there is no need for feminism in ‘this day and age’.
Oh man.
Apologies – what is the need?
Look at this incident; look up pay gap; look at proportion of political representation; look at sites with stories of idiot customers, especially tech stories; look at who tends to be the focus of media: news, opinion and entertainment; look at children’s clothes; look up statistics on rape convictions; look up research about blind auditions; look up research on reactions to women asking for pay rises;…
And check your own bias: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
Standing on the shoulders of giants without the wit or humility to pay them their just dues is unfortunately a common problem.
Thanks Arlene – still see no explanation of the need however (although I do enjoy your eloquent posts!). Looking forward to hearing rationale behind same.
Well said – Its terrible to see that its still happening in this day and age. The worst thing is that people are trying to defend PwC and blaming the “men” involved. The culture has to be perpetuated from somewhere.
Fantastic blog post Eleanor, thanks for being so honest about your experiences.
It’s sad that some women don’t think that sexism exists but it’s an indication of how ingrained into society it is that some don’t even notice it’s there.
Thankfully there are plenty of women and men who don’t feel that way.
I know it’s getting crowded on the harridan bench but if I could just squeeze in…
Also, just saw this on Twitter: http://yfrog.com/0wjyeaj
Thnaks Aoife, Ya know I feel really uncomfortable about a paper publishing photos of the blokes too. When I was just a little girl my Dad used to say “two wrongs don’t make a right”. Publishing photos of the men too does not mean that it was OK to splash photos of those completely blameless women all over the place. I do not support this move and think we should rise above it. I personally don’t care what they look like.
paranoid much?
Ladies and gents shufty up! Great post Eleanor nothing humourless about it at all. I was horrified when I heard about this. The mind boggles. While I feel sorry for the women involved & all their colleagues it does highlight the “professional beauty quotient” that is still required of women to a certain age. If you make it past that age you get points for grim determination :-/ Surely though the press ombudsman will have a case against the Irish papers who published the picture?
Thank you for this thoughtful post. I was beginning to think that I was suspended in some kind of hopeless time warp where men and women are not expected or encouraged to be treated as equal.
I am twenty six and have been incredibly disheartened at the reaction of some (but not all) of my male and female friends not to mention the mainstream media, who ruefully suggest that this incident(ie. men rating the attractiveness of women) is merely ‘a fact of life’ and to dare complain about it is to be churlish and obsolete.
I wouldn’t consider rating male colleagues in such a public, arbitrary, and dehumanising way so what’s with the complacency?
I’m offended. That’s what happens when you have a brain and a conscience.
Puts out a number of benches, if we are going to be seated we can be comfortable in our number!
As for the press ombudsman doing anything? I sadly doubt it.
I bet there were emails being hastily deleted from a number of different companies today – not this one that has been circulated but lots of others. And facebook lockdown and deletion may also be on the increase.
I have to also admit something today, it took me 40 years to hear the word clunge. I am still not the better for learning of it.
Haha! Beat you there, young wan. Took me 43 years to be introduced to le ‘clunge’. Still not sure what it means. Portmanteau of some kind. Will investigate further, at the risk of getting me ears boxed off of me, at home and away. But hat is the fearless pursuit of truth that I dedicate myself to. Mostly on others’ behalf, you understand.
Tally-ho. Will begin my O’Gorman’s People-esque routine at the Clarins stand in Brown Thomas.
eep! looks like ‘feminists” can’t answer any challenges to their stance. sad, but not unlike what i expected. only outrage but no real business logic – the reason we need real women and not feminists in business.
Oh dear.
The only reason why there are women in business is because of the efforts of good old hairy feminists.
If there’s a woman I feel sorry for, it’s the one who thinks she has to pander to sexist abuse.
Look, I’m sorry that many of the women on here did not reach their potential. to be frank they need to look at themselves and not hide away, i am not american and won’t advise.
Leaving aside the examples of awful sexism given by the original poster, and admitting that what happened to these girls is demeaning and upsetting, I question whether this particular instance can be termed as sexism.
My questioning of this stems from the fact that I see the exact same type of behaviour directed at men from groups of gay men. I often encounter groups of gay men in gay bars making the most callous and insensitive remarks about the looks of passing men, and applying rating systems to them.
This is not a justification of the email (which I agree was offensive), nor am I saying that because its a behaviour which many men engage in, that it is therefore acceptable. I am only questioning whether this reflects on any sort of endemic societal perception of women that could be termed sexism.
>> I am only questioning whether this reflects on any sort of endemic societal perception of women that could be termed sexism. <<
Sure, it's an issue amongst gay men as well. But there's a big difference between a group of guys out for the night in a very particular social setting making those kinds of comments, and a pervasive and often unquestioned sense in many, many *workplaces* that this is acceptable behaviour concerning one's female colleagues. Not saying that it makes the former any more fun for those involved, though.
One of the big differences is that women are far more likely to be physically attacked by men than straight men are to be attached by gay men. (Gay men are far more likely to be physically attacked, including sexual attack, than straight men are, and usually by straight men.) Nor do many straight men work in industries where all the senior people are gay men, and the higher up they go, the more gay men there are.
So whilst I certainly don’t condone gay men making unpleasant comments to straight men, no, I don’t think it’s the same because there isn’t the threat of escalation to violence, and there isn’t the same culture of power. Humiliating and unpleasant, sure. But the context is totally different.
“…women are far more likely to be physically attacked by men than straight men are to be attached by gay men”
Sexually, yes, physically no. Males are generally at a vastly greater risk of being physically assaulted or murdered than females. For example, Australia’s 2009 Recorded Crime statistics showed that males were 71% of all murder victims, 74% of attempted murder victims, 75% of robbery victims. Likewise a South Carolina crime survey from 1977-2000 showed that men were 59.5% of aggravated assault victims, 73.3% of murder victims and 69% of robbery victims.
This trend is reversed for sexual assaults, which disporportionately target females.
Mark may have a point that the examples of bad workplace behaviour here are signs not of how some men treat women, but how some men treat the sex they happen to be attracted to. I’m not sure though, some of it may have nothing to do with sexual attraction and much to do with conformity to a macho sub-culture with its own set of internal rules: including the treatment of women in a sexual or aggressive manner. In that case, even a gay man might join in to avoid the punishment of his male peers.
“Sexually, yes, physically no. Males are generally at a vastly greater risk of being physically assaulted or murdered than females”
Yes, but not by gay men, which is what the bit you quoted actually said! Men are almost always attacked by other men, and straight men are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked by other straight men than by gay men. Gay men are more likely to be attacked by straight men.
So yes, men are at risk of attack. But if there’s a group of gay men catcalling straight men, the straight men might (quite rightly) feel humiliated and embarrassed. But there is very little chance of the gay men escalating the situation to physical or sexual violence.
Similarly, my point about knowing that the people in power in your industry/company/police/law courts are more likely to belong to the group that is attacking you. Never the case for straight men feeling victimised.
Shane: read again the bit you quoted: “…women are far more likely to be physically attacked by men than straight men are to be attached by gay men”
Sorry Mary, I see your point.
It is not always easy to do the right thing. In my consultancy business clients often wished to choose or reject project leaders put up to do an expensive project Half my senior staff were women and we had black and gay staff. Clients sometimes rejected someone without giving any coherent reason. Our policy was to reject any discriminatory selection but what if the client was to insist? Sometimes I came under pressure from my own staff to kow tow to the client. They knew we needed the work and often wished to participate in an interesting overseas contract. What was my duty?
That is a dilemma Charlie. The economic realities are difficult to ignore, especially nowadays. It is so disappointing that such clients exist and the temptation is to be “pragmatic” and keep them happy. I suppose your duty must be to create a supportive and fair workplace as I have no doubt you did.
>> I was rarely spoken to directly; clients always addressed themselves to my boss or any random male colleague that happened to be in the room. <<
Yes! Have seen this happen – it does rather make one feel like we're still living in the 1950s a little bit. There are a lot of implicit assumptions that people still make. And you're right, it's the *casual* sexism – the in-theory-of-course-women-should-have-equal-rights-in-the-workplace stuff which translates into a practice of but-sure-women-don't-really-want-equal-rights-really-they're-not-like-men-and-a-little-bit-of-banter-never-hurt-anyone-and-if-they-get-bothered-by-it-sure-they're-just-too-sensitive-haha. And that can make it much more difficult to argue against or confront someone about.
Just a reminder that personal remarks and trolling comments posted purely to get a reaction rather than engage with other commenters’ posts are not acceptable on the Anti-Room. Keep it polite or comments won’t get approved.
Mark
You question whether what has happened to these women is sexism: you refer to them as girls, that is, as minors/children. When speaking of the male of the species you use the adult term ‘men’…
Great post. Nothing funny about this stuff.
The corporate world is indeed testosterone-fuelled. I spent 9 years working for a TelCo giant and, while I am male, I constantly came up against barriers. Why? Because I wasn’t into talking about sports, how many tequilas I downed at the weekend and what I “did” with my wife the previous night.
So, my circle of friends tended to be women, for the most part and a small group of really nice blokes. I can’t stand the macho shit that goes on when these assholes get together. It makes me itch.
Thanks Colin. Really interesting to get that perspective. It underlines the reality that if we make it clear that this behaviour is unacceptable then it will be to the benefit of everyone in society. There is a theory that not only are men generally promoted but also the wrong men are often promoted & rewarded for displaying a skewed value system. Perhaps this explains much of the financial mess we find ourselves in. We need to fundamentally rethink and re-engineer our dysfunctional workplaces, implement best practice and make life better for everyone.
The feedback on this post is monumental. Despite the very obvious arguments with sexism in the workplace and inappropriate media responses to the issue, I want to highlight how impacting this is on young girls and young women. This kind of behaviour (and the acceptance of such by both men and women) will leave young girls and women in a horrible situation. Is this what they are to expect when they enter the workforce? Can we please take a moment to look at our impressionable youth who are growing up in a culture which blatently seems to support sexism in the workplace and the objectification of women.
If I were a PWC client I’d be asking how much work time (paid for by me) was being spent on this kind of thing.
Love the comments by Claire: “There’s no sexism! That’s not an elephant! There is no room!”
Love it!
Fantastic post. What happened to these women is shameful but not shocking. I feel so sorry for what they’re going through now that the newspaper has decided to use their images for profit.
Excellent post, point well made. Thought provoking – actually had me thinking about this entire case in a very different way.
Thanks Darragh, I am delighted & encouraged to hear the opinions of right-thinking men on this issue.
Am delighted to read this. You say everything I’ve wanted to say over the past couple of days but could never be so eloquent.
I’m just horrified by this story and by the attitude of some that it’s just lads having the craic. Let’s be clear. This wasn’t lads on a Friday night down the pub saying ‘God Mary looked great today didn’t she. She’s hot!’ which happens in every pub in every country worldwide.
This was 17 men – it wasn’t ‘lads’ they were all well into their 20s – who in company time compiled a written list of new recruits and labelled it ‘new clunge’ or ‘new pussy’ if you prefer to be old school about it. Pussy. That’s all they were. Pussy. These men are senior to these women, they had been in the firm at least a couple of years if not more and they felt this appropriate? In what reality is that appropriate in the workplace?
They then forwarded it on outside the company, to mates who then forwarded it on. Even before the media got their hands on this, this email had gone viral. Isn’t that how the media got it, didn’t someone forward it on to a journalist? (Just to say I don’t condone the papers for publishing the pictures of these women, that was totally disgusting and out of order. Completely unneccessary.)
Not only would I fire all of these men immediately for gross misconduct, I’d also fire them for gross stupidity. If you’re going to be a sexist prick at least have the gumption not to do it from your company email account.
I once read an article in a magazine about a woman who got a job in a big financial company in London. On her first day, her FIRST DAY, someone screamed ‘Bitch’ across the room at her and threw a full can of Coke which hit her squarely in the back of the head. On her first day. She later found out that this was done routinely and that if she laughed it off, she was in. If she complained, she’d be shunned. She chose to laugh it off, even though a visit to the doctor confirmed she had been concussed. She felt she had to do this to survive. Hearing stories like that, and yours Eleanor make me feel sick to my stomach.
Thanks. I am encouraged that PwC have launched an investigation and that action is being taken. I am even more encouraged that this debate is taking place at all. It’s so lonely and demeaning to feel that you just have to put up with this hideous behaviour. I really hope it helps everyone on the receiving end of sexist behaviour to know that they are not alone and that there is support and understanding for them out there.
“As for the press ombudsman doing anything? I sadly doubt it.”
Suzy, what makes you assume this?
Voluntary codes, self regulation and no teeth really.
No, it’s not good enough to assume that the press ombudsman won’t do anything about it on that basis.
Everybody in this thread needs to first write a letter of complaint to the press that published the images, and then send the subsequent correspondence to the press ombudsman. More details here:
http://www.pressombudsman.ie/making-a-complaint.24.html
The casual, normative sexism is so much part of life that a lot of people scarcely see it. I was laughing at a recent Vincent Browne show when a male trade unionst answered a female journalist’s questions with his back turned to her…
Great post, and so glad to see it. I work in an office where we have very few men, but I had the misfortune to voice my concerns about the hunky dory ad that was outside our office door a few months back and I swore never again. I had a similar experience with friends about the same ad, to the point where I ended up in tears because of the way I was treated for my stance. The women in the office looked at me as if I was insane as did my friends, so there wasn’t a hope I was going to raise concerns in the office canteen about the PWC incident. Thankfully there are people out there just like me, who are far from prudes, but know blatant sexist behaviour when they see it!
You were vidicated on those awful Hunky Dory ads.Well done for speaking up. You are not alone.
I used to think I was, then I found the Anti Room! We all enjoy a bit of banter, but only when it’s equal. Sadly neither this incident nor the hunky dorys were equal.
Thanks Eleanor, a wonderful post. And amazing responses – over 100??? Brilliant! I think you may need a bench extension, otherwise we will have to form a human pyramid, reaching up to the skies – if so, may I bagsy a place on one of the lower rungs as I am not too good with heights?
These young women have been treated as inanimate objects and figures of fun by the perpetrators of this “game” and have suffered from a degrading and belittling kind of sexual bullying. Nobody should be treated this way.
Thanks Elizabeth, We’re assembling more benches. Welcome aboard.
Thanks for write it! I was very glad to read it! I think this experience is very common, as all the comments here can demonstrate! But it’s important to say that again again and again!
Great post and well said. I agree totally – it’s not “a bit of fun”, it’s embarrassing.
Delighted to see so many responses to this well-observed post.
On the same day that this story broke, one of my Twitter [industry] contacts posted a tweet from their company account saying ‘one for the fellas’, with a link to a photo of a semi-naked Playboy model. Ironic timing, huh? (The poster apologised after I pointed out how inappropriate this was.)
Quiet Pig>> I too complained about the Hunky Dory campaign, and was one of the first people to post a complaint on their Facebook page, for which I received plenty of abuse from random strangers.
I really hope all the publicity this story is getting will do some good (even though the publication of the photos by the press is a disgrace). Many of the comments added to the story on Gawker.com were along the lines of ‘oh yeah, they do this in my workplace too’. It’s not acceptable, and we shouldn’t accept it.
Sylvia, glad to see I wasn’t the only one. I got a lot of stick for my stance on that ad, and I wrote a letter of complaint to the advertising standards people at the time. After the way people treated me afterwards I actually began to question what type of person I actually was until my mother told me she was proud of me for standing up for what I believed in despite the upset and opposition it had caused me. I can’t begin to imagine what those poor girls in PwC are thinking, but I so hope that it doesn’t deter them in any way, but will hopefully make them all the stronger.
Me again, Eleanor – I’ve been reading the rest of the comments on here and am struck by the ones repeating (but not agreeing with, I hasten to add!) the old ‘boys will be boys’ line.
The first time I heard that line was from a priest in the convent parlour where I went to school. The priest in question had just been informed – by one of the nuns who taught me – that I had been raped by two of the boys at the school where he taught. That line was his response. Boys will be boys.
That one line excuses males everything. It does the whole of society a dis-service. We need to de-commission it.
Hazel
Well said, thanks so much for this article, its not just in business, I was routinely asked to fetch a scone with butter AND jam from the shop by the principle of the school I worked in, along with making tea and loading the dishwasher and any other ‘womanly’ duties that he thought suitable. I was sadly foolish enough to do it. With more people like yourself speaking out about this perhaps it will not be seen as tolerable in any work situation
This is a fantastic discussion, so let’s remember to avoid personal insults! As you were.
Many young women seem to think they live in a post feminist world where they have equal rights and are so sexually liberated that they shouldn’t be bother about such carry on and anyone who is has issues.
There has been a start to reclaim feminism finally, but it’s a slow haul as eaten bread is soon forgotten and as modern history and socail change is not taught about in secondary schools many are not aware of the issues until it happens to them and then they think it’s a one off.
Unfortunately having worked in several tech/engineering jobs
those sort of emails are nothing new, it’s not all men, there are many wonderful men in my life but there has be a rise in
sexism and casual sexism of men in their 20s.
I agree. For some reason feminism is seen as distasteful, unnecessary and unattractive by some young women. Everyone in my life who I respect is a feminist, including all of the men. feminism is about fairness and equality. Surely we all want to live in a fair and equal world.
Good post, Eleanor.
I don’t think the actions of the PwC employees were initially about the feminist agenda per se. It was the manner by which the media reported the actions that really peed me off, and yes, because of this the Feminist agenda was brought to the forefront!
Because PwC fowled up showing pictures, it is more disgraceful to see these pictures posted on websites and other media. As a result, this compounded the story. It is ironic and highly insulting to the women in question and invited a new audience to participate in the foul competition.
No one, men nor women, are a piece of meat, and wonder why pictures of the men involved weren’t shown as they were the guilty parties, not the victims, whose privacy was incidently compromised (this doesn’t happen in a rape trial case). I do feel that these women are forced to ‘laugh at themselves’ in order not to embarrass PwC further. What happened was wrong from the very beginning – from the PwC score sheets onwards. It shouldn’t happen to a woman or a man. I am a man, but one who favours equal rights!
Hi Eleanor, great piece and well done on Newstalk earlier.
I graduated with you, as you know.
Was asked at an interview if I was married or intended to get married, I mean honestly! I answered by saying that I presumed the interviewer would be asking the male candidates the same questions. At least he had the good grace to look embarassed. I knew a Law graduate who was asked at interview if she was on the pill. Don’t know if the interviewers asked the male candidates if they used condoms, doubt it though.
When I think back, I certainly would have had experiences of being overlooked by male colleagues/clients at meetings, being expected to arrange/make the teas/coffees, being talked over/ignored etc. Sometimes I’d make a fuss, others times I didn’t. Self-preservation I suppose.
As you know, I’m not in “professional” work at present, I’m at home, but my last role was in a very male-dominated environment. To be fair, the company were a good and fair company to work with, but I was the HR Manager so maybe they were on their best behaviour! Joking aside, during my time there, I didn’t have to deal with any gender related issues to be honest. I was asked once by a senior colleague when I was going to wear “that nice suit” I wore to my interview again. When I asked why he told me that it suited me but knowing the guy I genuinely think it was his cack handed attempt at complimenting me, rather than some pervy “power suited” woman fantasy he had!
Given some of the experiences recounted in the above comments, I was probably fortunate. Or maybe not particularly observant.
Thanks Susan, Yes indeed we are contemporaries. I took my engagement ring off when I went to one interview. I got the job and on day one the first thing the male boss said was “I see you got engaged” – perhaps I imagined it but he looked put out. The same man used to wait until after hours and get me to send his faxes as he couldn’t use the machine.
That question about the girl being on the pill is stunning! My immediate reaction is “I’ll see you in court” but how? I’m sure it would be denied & who needs the hassle. I bet she didn’t want to work there though.
Next issue after we tackle & eradicate sexism (one can dream) might be to make the workplace more family friendly & flexible for everyone?
The “pill” question is bad enough but what is probably even more unbelievable is that the interview was with a law firm.
I do remember having a “milk round” interview with a large UK company and being totally intimidated by the two male interviewers. It was pretty obvious to me they weren’t too interested in female candidates and were just satisfying an interview quota. Thankfully things have improved and moved on but incidents like PwC, and subsequent media comment, just undo a lot of the good work which has been done.
I had a similar experience during a medical for a position only a couple of years ago. They took a urine sample, and I asked what tests they planned to run.
The woman doctor told me that they were doing a pregnancy test “in case you’re lying”. I was outraged and to my eternal shame, said nothing.
Hurrah, Eleanor!
Brilliant post Eleanor, just saying on twitter how I recently had a meeting with bloke, there was myself, a female colleague and a young male intern. The guy basically ignored us women and spoke directly to male intern. Absolutely laughable.
Thanks redmum, that is tragic & so embarrassing for that bloke. Hilarious. The intern must have been bewildered.
Hi Eleanor, Your writing is an excellent and very articulate response to the current controversy that is happening at PWC.
However the picture that is used is repulsive and detracts from your piece. It enforces a universal stereotype of men being sexist pigs which is not the case.
There are a few bad apples (as the PWC incident has shown) but in the main most Irish men treat women with the same level of respect and courtesy in and out of the workplace as they receive from women.
Speaking as an Irish male sexism and rudeness is a two way street and is not just confined to men being sexist or piggish towards women.
Noel, thanks for commenting. I’m sorry you were offended, but the use of this picture was clearly inspired by the famous and wonderful satirical Harry Enfield sketch set in the ’50s in which women were admonished into knowing their limits. The image is from the ’40s or ’50s and is presented as a joke about archaic sexism. I don’t think it suggests that today’s men are sexist pigs.
Thanks Anna, that is exactly it! I had that very sketch in mind when I chose the picture. I love it and think it is a brilliant and effective piece of comedy with a very powerful underlying message.
It’s one of my favourite sketches of all time! I love the expressions of horrified rage on their faces when they realise what the unnaturally educated women is saying. A lesson to us all!
Point taken Noel & thanks for your comment. I was unsure about the picture to be honest but used it to lighten the piece a little (as I saw it). It is definitely tongue in cheek and certainly does not represent all or even most men. Far from it. I find that the vast majority of men and certainly all of the men that I respect are utterly intolerant of sexism too. I believe that it is just the obnoxious few bullies that allow the culture to prevail. I’m delighted with the response the piece has generated amongst many, many right-thinking men like you. You are all undoubtedly part of the solution and not part of the problem.
@Mary: I don’t agree with what you are saying as I don’t believe this is the kind of behaviour that “escalates” into sexual violence. What I am saying is that this behaviour is common (again I must be very clear that common does not mean acceptable) to men and not indicative of an attitude to women. I supported this with reference to gay men. I don’t for a second believe that this kind of rating behaviour in any way leads to rape.
@Miriam: firstly you didn’t address any of the points I made re sexism. Secondly I don’t agree that referring to young women as girls is sexist. In my previous call centre work, most women referred to any group of men user 30 as the boys. My sister always refers to her friends in their mid 20s as boys. I think it’s fairly common.
You’ve mis-understood me. I don’t think that such comments necessarily escalate to sexual violence. I do think that comments which come with a threat of escalation – simply because I said it was about context. The reality is that when men make sexual comments about women, they’re doing so in the context of a culture where, actually, plenty of men do force women in sex, and plenty of women have been forced into sex. There is simply no comparable experience for the majority of straight men because there isn’t the context.
You also ignored my other point, which is that when women are on the receiving end of comments like this, they know that the further up the company they go, the more likely they are to encounter men. Again, there’s no equivalent for straight men being cat-called by gay men.
That’s the definition of sexism I’m using – not something that happens exclusively to women, but something that has a very different resonance when it happens to women because there is a cultural context there which doesn’t exist for (straight) men.
@Anna Carey You say that you don’t think the picture ‘suggests that today’s men are sexist pigs’, however the caption underneath it when translated means ‘the more things change the more they say the same. Is that not a contradiction?
I take Eleanor’s point that the image was used as a bit of humour to lighten the piece however as a man i find the image used to be crude and quite frankly sexist.
[...] I encourage you to read Eleanor Fitzsimon’s post on The Anti-Room, ‘Life in the Testosterone Zone’ « Spot Cowen and [...]
I’ve just realised that one of the women ‘rated’ in the PwC email is the daughter of my old boss. A man who was proud of the fact that he had made every woman who had worked for him cry (apart from me; I certainly felt like it, but I’m incredibly stubborn).
He also spent most of the day on the phone bragging loudly to his mates about ‘birds’ he’d pulled or chatted up and rated all women on whether he thought they’d be ‘a goer’ in bed or were ‘rough’. ‘She’s not a bad looking bird for her age’, etc.
I wonder how he likes it when it’s his daughter involved? Proud that the lads think his daughter might be ‘a goer’? Or horrified that men would speak of her in that way?
Oh you can be sure the latter. Before this he was probably a little like Claire up thread, doesn’t affect me, ergo it does not happen. This will be an unpleasant eye opener for him.
@Mary: I still disagree. I see no connection between this email and threats of sexual violence. It seems to me like saying that slagging men is different to slagging women because its more likely to escalate into a fist fight with two men than it is with a man and a woman. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
I’m thinking of the young women in final year of college who are thinking they’d love to work in PWC, or girls in secondary school thinking they might do a business degree to work in the likes of PWC, I imagine many of them will feel quite fearful that this is the type of situation they may have to expect when they start work. The general chat that ‘lads will be lads’ and acceptance that this is okay in the world of work, will only serve to discourage them more.
I think PWC have a job to do in going into colleges and schools and arguing that women are welcome, say they will do all they can to ensure that their workplace will not be hostile to women and that women will be given the professional status they deserve, and not shown utter disrespect as ratings fodder.
I’m trying to imagine that sort of a workplace now – sadly, it’s proving quite hard to picture.
That’s it exactly Deirdre! I was that starry-eyed, idealistic young girl & all I want for the next generation is that they can dare to have such modest ambitions and not have them messed up by a bunch of moronic knuckle-draggers.
Yeah the problem with someone like “Claire” and the reason she’s able to leave moronic comments (e.g. I have risen to the top of my profession and never encountered any sexism etc) is because other women have enabled a situation where she can do this in the first place.
She doesn’t call herself a feminist. She doesn’t need to. Other women have done all the hard work for her, in previous generations, leaving her to enjoy the benefits.
Hey Claire a generation ago you would have had to leave work when you got married if it wasn’t for those pesky feminists. Now though you are free to enjoy a career and your own independence.
So yes, lets make a big fuss out of incidents like this PWC one. Boys will be boys, girls will be girls and this can easily be dismissed as such: but when applied to the wider issue maybe you can understand why people are getting so upset?
not sure why you have the inverted commas – that is my name. And now – i still, despite the numerous comments on this site, fail to see the big deal – sozzles! And feminists weren’t pesky – just no longer necessary as has always been my point. c.
It is grammatically correct to use a capital letter at the beginning of a sentence. When referring to the first person singular personal pronoun it is grammatically correct to use a capital “I”. It is also grammatically incorrect to begin a sentence with “and”. Touché
Still no answer to my question…!! Although I do take your point re the grammar – that was unfair of me and all your points make sense of course. Apologies.
No problem Claire. Does the question relate to the use of “Claire”? Sorry, I can’t answer for those who used this form of address. I have no doubt that it is your name.
People get upset for a great many reasons. In my wife’s open plan office where the sexes are split 50/50 a serious minded boy made a complaint against the behaviour of several young girls who persisted in trying to kiss him, sat on his lap, made lewd suggestions and who were warned by management but did not change their behaviour. After some weeks one of them was sacked. I agee that there is more going the other way. But get real.
My friend was told last week by two members of her family, both of whom know people who work in PWC that a) this practice has been going on for years and b) the women also do it to the men. I’m not saying that makes it not wrong. I am a staunch believer that sexism is now more casually accepted than ever. However I think people need to take with a serious pinch of salt a ‘sexism outrage’ story from the same newspapers who did not balk at compromising these women’s privacy and dignity in a much worse way by printing their photographs.
Sadly I’m not surprised to hear that this is widespread. Yes printing the photographs was very poor form indeed.
[...] by Eleanor’s great piece on the Antiroom Blog, I just have to write something on the PwC [...]
I’m on the bench, too.
I wanted to note, though, that this instance is part of a much larger issue of casual sexism. While what takes place in a work environment may be more severe – especially because women cannot get away without losing their jobs – it happens everywhere, all the time. If you’re serious about stopping this issue, it has to be discouraged on all levels. You can’t give guys a pass when they objectify women in clubs, on date, women who are strippers, women in ads, etc. and then be super offended when it happens to you. Objectification is wrong in all situations. It’s part of how these men look at the world – not just their office.
Also, the issue goes both ways. It’s just as bad for women to behave this way. If men’s behavior is allowed to continue, you can expect that it will spread to more women, also.
And as for “claire”, she thinks that there is no sexism because she clearly cannot identify it when she sees it.
Welcome to the bench LB. I agree that sexism is always inappropriate. As you say there is something particularly distasteful in the workplace in circumstances where the women were utterly unwitting victims.
Naturally we will always find other people attractive – that’s what makes the world go around but this should take the form of admiration rather than objectification. Goodness knows we all enjoy a bit of mutual, respectful flirtation to brighted the day.