A plan is afoot to plasterLondon buses with adverts urging the Pope to ordain women priests. It’s an interesting angle for the English to approach the pontiffs visit with, almost as if there weren’t more pressing matters with which to confront him. Then again, it would be too rude to embarrass him with messy issues like the concealment of child sex abuse by priests and the hierarchy, or their refusal to endorse the use of life saving condoms in Africa.
It’s safe to say that organised religions in general have not furthered the cause of women’s equality and emancipation.
But Buddhism has long been held as being the acceptable religion by many left leaning liberals, who would also count themselves in favour of gender equality.
It is therefore a bit depressing to note the Dalai Lama’s recent comments about the possibility of a woman succeeding him.
He begins well enough.
“The purpose of the incarnation is to serve people about dharma (faith). If the circumstances are such, female form is more useful, then why not?”
Unfortunately he then lets himself and all of man and woman-kind down with,
“And I also mentioned in case Dalai Lama’s incarnation one female comes then must be very attractive female. So the very reason, you see more influence to others, an ugly female then may not much effective,”
Oh dear.
Was he joking? He has been known to get a bit giggly at times. Perhaps he just liked the idea of coming back as an attractive woman, presumably so he could spend the day touching his own breasts and looking in the mirror?
Even more depressingly, when this comment was posted on Facebook by the smart and funny Michael Nugent, of Ireland’s atheist society, another man (we will leave him unnamed, less he become the anti-feminist equivalent of the cat bin lady), responded with:
Well, to be fair, what he said was that an attractive woman would influence more people than an unattractive woman, so that is just being realistic.
When challenged he went on to say,
you are talking about what the world should be like, and I was talking about what it is like. Just because we “find a thought depressing” doesn’t mean it can’t be true. Wow, sound familiar? We atheists are telling people that every five minutes… Anyway, I was certainly surprised that the Dalai lama said that and thought it was shockingly rude, but rude is not the same as false. I guess his culture doesn’t have the same taboos about the same impolite-but-true statements that ours does.
So I suppose religion isn’t equality’s only foe. A total lack of belief in achieving it in our lifetime is hampering all our aspirations for equal pay and status. A recent poll by the Guardian newspaper found women in the UK could not expect equal pay till about 2067.
But never mind. If you are a Buddhist believer and live a good life perhaps you will be lucky enough to come back as a dung beetle in your next life.
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Buddhism is a bit of a hip religion these days but it too has been used in the past to reinforce the power of cynical political leaders. Until the 19th century all Japanese people were forced to register at Buddhist temples in an attempt to destroy the Christian movement; the Buddhist clergy helped consolidate the samurai military dictatorship of Japan.
“…all our aspirations for equal pay and status.”
Just a point: why are there so many men in prison? About 90% of prisoners in Ireland between 2001 and 2006 were male:
http://www.crimecouncil.gov.ie/statistics_cri_prison_table7.html
Is Ireland a matriarchy that punishes men with prison sentences? Nah I don’t think so, it’s just that more men break the law than women, this unequal result comes from a difference in behaviour. Perhaps unequal “pay and status” also comes from differences in behaviour rather than some kind of societal sexism?
I do not know much about the Dalai Lama and his followers. Once I reminded a Buddist friend of mine, with whom I had fallen out, that he should be more careful for he might come back in this life as a slug. Afterwards I thought it a foolish remark for I knew nothing about the spiritual life of a slug and that, for all I knew, the life of such a creature might be short but merry. However, I do know something about Roman Catholicism and the history of women in the Church (one of whom, Pope I mean, was a woman). It always interests me to work out who is the typical reader for any piece of writing. It puzzles me in this instance. I know, and you may know too, that Roman Catholicism would not exist but for the adoration of women: most Catholics in most countries, and in Ireland, are women. Some of the contributors to the Anti-Room may be Catholics. Catholicism like smoking is bad for you. If you say this loudly hundreds of thousands of women will go into their respective courtyards and have another ciggy: it is not easy to stop. As for we men, whatever our responsibility for setting it up in the first past, we cannot be blamed now. Well you women, what are you going to do about it?
@Shane. Thanks for your comment. It seems likely that “behviour” comes down to enforced social structures. Who enforced those structures? Those in power. Who is in power in the majority? umm, yep – that would be men.
Your point about Buddhism is well made, I’ll at least give you that. I look forward to meeting up with you on the levelled dung field of our afterlives.
@Charliechops What in interesting stream on conciousness. I think you are right to question our collective lack of knowledge about the spiritual life of a slug.
As for the other stuff – indoctrination really explains it best.
“It seems likely that “behviour” comes down to enforced social structures. Who enforced those structures? Those in power.”
I don’t understand, you mean that male criminals are forced to break the law? I could believe it in the 19th century when people stole to avoid starvation but not so much today. I don’t agree that social structures force men to commit driving offences, or engage in drunken brawls.
I’m not sure why far more men break the law than women, though. Is it because they are reared with societal expectations of aggression and rebelliousness? Or are they biologically inclined towards aggressive, destructive behaviour?
One way or another, the sexual disparity in prison numbers reflects a disparity in behaviour, rather than an anti-male bias by police. I just wonder if the sexual disparity in pay also reflects different behaviour – as this Guardian article suggests:
“Another issue is that women tend not to negotiate. When offered a rubbish deal, they typically just accept the terms.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/aug/27/women-wont-ask-pay-rises
Or maybe this really is sexism at work. In which case we should rally against the heightism prevalent in business too:
“…each inch in height added $789 (£471) to the annual pay packet – so someone who is five feet five inches would be paid over $5,000 (£3,000) less than someone who is six foot tall.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3200296.stm
I am not even slightly surprised by old Lama’s quip, most religions- though not all- consider women second class citizens, there to prop up numbers and know their place, why would he be any different? As to women in the CC, don’t get that at all, like turkeys supporting Christmas. But then I am a bit of a gnu atheist and thus ‘militant’ and superior for reasons I have yet to fathom.
The Dalai Lama is no box of chocolates himself.
Box no, but he could be the nougat one. Or coconut. Yack.
Or the hard-boiled sweet version, that makes you winch and that somehow gets confused with a smile. The gombeen guru has let himself down on this one. Also, I don’t like his taste in dresses. And isn’t it funny how most of these religious world-to-rights men wear dresses? I think there’s a glut of clubs for men like that in Soho London and in various places around Newcastle and Berlin.
Sometimes I wish the church did allow women priests. Just for the hilarity of watching the same people who spent years lamenting the “inequality” turn around and start wondering how so many women could possibly want to join an organisation with such anti-woman views.
Wouldn’t be ‘the church’ then, John. Plus, apart from dubious reasons of hilarity, the assumption that women would want to join after such a goalpost shift is an odd one.
The church can really only camp out on the hight ground by being right all of the time. Limbo aside, if they start tossing out their rules to appease everyone they admit they stand on shaky ground, which I doubt they would be willing to do. So either women are of equal worth in a religion or they are not, offering piecemeal positions would not sway or impress most of the women I know.
Hmm. An interesting one. The Dalai Lama’s response seems politically incorrect. Of course a woman, or man, need not be the most gorgeous creature on the earth to be the oul D.L.
But on reflection, I might be leaning towards the unnamed commentor’s view….women *are* judged more on their looks, like it or not. The Dalai Lama was stating a fact, indicating that she might be better off being a stunner in order to garner more attention and followers to the faith, which, is really the job the Dalai Lama does, innit? A kind of shepherd or rounder-upper of folk.
Also, perhaps this comment made by himself might be viewed through a non-Western culture lens. Perhaps it is fact that in Tibet a woman’s best commodity is her looks. Sad as it is. And there are other more subtle factors to do with social norms and values that we in the West might not thoroughly understand.
Also there is the fact that, although he’s an excellent English speaker, English is not his first language, and therefore might not convey said subleties.
Anti-Room- I am disgusted that women are judged solely on their looks on a daily basis, and I am firmly of the opinion that this sucks and blows and is a load of crap.
But as a mixed race person who has been misunderstood on many many levels in many cultures, I am not sure that this is a straight case of show-us-you-face nastyism.
[...] Brown at The Anti-Room isn’t too happy with the Dalai Lama’s follow-up to his own comment that his next [...]
Of course in England and elsewhere there are ‘women priests’. The Anglican Church is in the process of commiting itself to women as Bishops. In a decade no one will worry about that at all. So far as I am aware, there are no differences in public perception between men and women clerics in England . Beauty is the eye of the beholder. I expect some of these clerics, men and women are ugly. Some of the men are uglier than women on the other hand some of the women are uglier than men. My wife is prettier than any woman cleric I have seen. She does not wish to become a cleric. My mother-in- law is plain but good hearted. What exactly is the fuss about?
@Shane You are right, I was wrong; it is spelled “behaviour” Well done.
As a 6 foot tall woman (I think Arlene will back me up here) I wouldn’t want to challenge heightism, as it directly benefits me.
I assume that’s why others don’t like to challenge sexism.
@John I think you are right about women wondering why other women would want to join the church. However, I don’t think it helps women as a whole group to preclude them from joining up to anything individuals choose. Let us join then let us have the debate. Maybe by joining they are hoping to improve things for women in the spiritual landscape. Change from within – isn’t that a popular sentiment in the Church at present?
@Sarah H. Thanks for that thoughtful comment. It brings another perspective. I still think that just because the Dalai Lama may come from a culture that is less advanced in it’s treatment of women, it doesn’t make his comment any the less disappointing coming, as it does, from someone who is suppose to be an aspirational leader for everyone – not just men and pretty women only.
I can hear the Dalai Lama making his comment about a pretty reincarnation of himself and laughing uproarously!! Of course he was joking! Don’t be absurd, the man is no fool! Also if you are going to write comments such as this you may also want to include other things the man has said regarding women. Such as a more recent declaration alluding to the prosepect of women ruling governments, because we would do a much better job. He has a tremendous amount of faith in women as leaders and has helped change the climate for female buddhist practitioners to one of greater respect, particularly within the Tibetan Buddhist sects.
As is often typical with feminists and I include myself in that genre we can be overly sensitive in these areas.
The truth however unfortunate, is that people who are “better looking” male or female get a long in life a bit better than those of us who are average or below what society deems as beautiful. This sense fo beauty varies from culture to culture. This has actually been proved wheter we like it or not. As humans we enjoy what is aesthetically pleasing….however we interpret this.
More than likely this was HHDL’s humorous way in pointing out one of our many human flaws…
IN RESPONSE TO: Sarah H – Also, perhaps this comment made by himself might be viewed through a non-Western culture lens. Perhaps it is fact that in Tibet a woman’s best commodity is her looks. Sad as it is. And there are other more subtle factors to do with social norms and values that we in the West might not thoroughly understand.
Since I am married to a Tibetan man I can speak to this comment with a fair amount of experience. In actuality Tibetans like anyone prefer a woman or a man who is considered “good looking”, however they are more concerned with the heart of that person. As my husband has reminded me on many occasions just becasue someone is beautiful on the outside does’nt mean they are the same on the inside. In other words beauty is only skin deep.
Most traditional Tibetans are less concerned with the looks of their mate and more concerned about compatibility, disposition, heart, compassion etc… Really not that much different than any one else..
I will say there is a tendancy though to be very upfront and honest about these things. From my experience Tibetans are pretty forth right with their view and opinions and in no way mean to offend, bold honesty is definately a cultural thing. For instance commenting on someone’s fatness or skinniness is part of conversational fact not an insult or judgement.
Sarah
I am a secularist. If people break the law they should be prosecuted for it, for no one is above the law; if priests stay silent and do nothing, they should be convicted for conspiracy to deny the law; if religionists oppose abortion and birth control they should be defeated in Parliament; if a priest calls at your door, suggest the O’Hara’s at number 26, as we have no religious belief at our house. If we do not do these things, then mea culpa – stay silent.
Dear readers, as a buddhist I wanted to share something relevant to this topic: All comments, except for some, are beacause you are not calm, because you aren’t a buddhist. Let me prove:
1. you are pretending to be not what the great lama said..i.e Ego.
2. You expect a religion to be like a special, different and protected balm rather tha a truth…i.e habbit of beliefs.
3. The Dalai lama means…wordly minds are taken away by physical aspects of things, like the case of a pretty women. therefore, should he take advantage of a pretty women face to convey the juice of dhamma was a Joke from his heart. Therefore, he request you for something and you understood something…i.e Habbit of fast concluding lips.
4. If the Dalai Lama speaks of emptiness and if you are still hanging at the level of the concept of beauty and ugliness then for sure you aren’t a buddhist, so not your territory, so don’t take tension…yes, it was not a problem of the dalai lama.
5. Buddhism isn’t a design of speach to please you as per your taste…it is about driving facts from truth..Don’t try to climp the cliff if you don’t have strength in your arms. Be powered by compassion if you wanted to understand the dictionary of the Dalai lama.. May all beings be calm, steady, continues and sure every time…
for doubts you may write to an_vma_neh@yahoo.com